we into this?

Forest is people. People is you. You is us.
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ravanwin
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we into this?

Post by ravanwin » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:30 pm

All -

they wanna have a table here during the fest. maybe one or two days? thoughts?

r

Hi Ryan,

It was great to talk to you just now - thanks for your time. I’ve put a bit more info below about Creative & Cultural Skills, and the kind of thing we’d like to do in August. I think the best thing would be if Liz popped in for a chat soon, so I’ve copied her into this email so that you have each other’s email addresses.

Creative & Cultural Skills is a not-for-profit organization which exists to link up the creative and cultural industries with the world of education. The idea is that we listen to people who work in creative industries to find out what the issues are in terms of skills and education – does a qualification give you the right skills to do a job, what’s missing from training or development, what can be done to help people get into a creative job etc.

Over the period of the Edinburgh festivals, we’re getting out and about all over Edinburgh to tell people about Creative Choices°. This is our new web portal, a free service, very user-led, which gives a load of career information about the creative industries and provides the tools for people to develop their creative career (things like a job mapping tool, case studies and interviews with leaders from creative industries, and networks and forums so that users can meet other creative people online and build up their own networks).

As you said, I don’t think our ‘internet café’ idea works with The Forest, but it would be great to be able to set up a little stall, which we could man for a few hours a day, at which we’d have a laptop where people can register on Creative Choices° or just explore the website a bit and talk to us about what we do and how they can be involved.

Maybe you could have a think about this idea, talk to some other members of your collective, and then Liz can pop in for a more detailed chat? Do just give me a ring or drop me an email if you’d like any more information.

Thanks very much

Naomi



Engagement Advisor

Creative & Cultural Skills



Lafone House

The Leathermarket

Weston Street

London SE1 3HN



Email naomi.kent@ccskills.org.uk

Telephone + 44 (0) 20 7015 1828

Fax + 44 (0) 20 7015 1847

Web http://www.ccskills.org.uk

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Post by chris » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:40 pm

i checked their website, which seems fancy, and watched their promo video, which doesnt say much..

still quite confused, are they a job centre for artists?

they say 'in the future every indivual, learner or leader entering our industries will come through creative choices to find their way'. is that good?
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Post by ravanwin » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:06 pm

it's all a bit B.S. like but i will have a meet with them and see. a day or two couldn't hurt. maybe they are good. the woman i know who works there is nice. a bit "straight" though....
r

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Post by Shannon » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:24 pm

why do they want to work with us?

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Post by ravanwin » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:46 pm

we are a creative space.
they know me.

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Shannon
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Post by Shannon » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:43 pm

I don´t really like the sound of it, but if you think it could be good and would like to liaise, go for it.

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unnecessary bureaucracy seeking the credibility & notori

Post by amelia » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:54 am

To be human is to create. Another blurb on this group would be 'where creativity serves economy'.

Enormous credibility comes with agreeance for this group to be given place amongst [i]the real [/i]that is the forest. I don't like the idea. Sure have some of their pamphlets, but promoting them as one of us, may be misleading to those who require the safe space offered by the forest.

For them to say that in the future all creativity will come through them or whatever it says,(having checked it) is telling of their self interest. Contrary to forest I feel...?

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Shannon
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Post by Shannon » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:23 am

Maybe they are the kind of group we want to steer towards booking the hall and paying for it?

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Post by Susana » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:01 pm

I found this: " Creative & Cultural Skills is one of a network of 25 sector skills councils, known collectively as the Skills for Business Network, to oversee the strategic development of the workforce in our industries and deliver realistic solutions to skills needs"

(from: http://feedfury.com/content/14133383-go ... ships.html )

Also this may be clarifying:
http://www.musicmanifesto.co.uk/feature ... kell/18689

If they were only about giving information on what skills you need to get a job in industry, if that is the road you want to take, then that would be reasonable. But they intend, focussing on the needs of industry, to influence education and the government . There is already to much link between education, research and industry as it is, in my opinion. To want to apply this model to creativity/arts is sacrilegious, me thinks.
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Post by Gandhi » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:24 pm

Over the period of the Edinburgh festivals, we’re getting out and about all over Edinburgh to tell people about Creative Choices°. This is our new web portal, a free service, very user-led, which gives a load of career information about the creative industries and provides the tools for people to develop their creative career (things like a job mapping tool, case studies and interviews with leaders from creative industries, and networks and forums so that users can meet other creative people online and build up their own networks).
Surely anything that helps people earn a living from their creative skills would be of benefit to a lot of people in the Forest?...saying that it also kind of sounds like they are just doing a survey and surely this would be better done online and it also sounds like a promotional push for people to go to their website. i'm confused are they nice people or just want a free space to advertise themselves. They kind of sound like IM Media and Business Gateway combined...but not as good. Then again they are not for profit so I'm sure they have a lot of good intentions.
I think it would be better to have workshops by artsists etc who earn through their craft to do talks and workshops. Think that would be 1000x more beneficial to the Forest.
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Post by milk » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:09 am

interesting. top down meets the bottom. so, Government > UK Commission for Employment and Skills > Alliance of Sector Skills Councils > CCSkills

some info, bold+italics mine;

UK Commission for Employment and Skills

"Launched on 1 April 2008, the UK Commission for Employment and Skills (UKCES) is a key recommendation in Lord Leitch's 2006 review of skills.

The UK Commission aims to raise UK prosperity and opportunity by improving employment and skills.

Its ambition is to benefit employers, individuals and government by advising how improved employment and skills systems can help the UK become a world-class leader in productivity, in employment and in having a fair and inclusive society: all this in the context of a fast-changing global economy.

Because employers, whether in private business or the public sector, have prime responsibility for the achievement of greater productivity, the UK Commission will strengthen the employer voice and provide greater employer influence over the employment and skills systems."

-- their about page

"The UK Commission for Employment and Skills is a Non-Departmental Public Body that provides advice to the British Government and Devolved Administrations on skills and employment policy.

Created in April 2008, the Commission supersedes the former Sector Skills Development Agency and will be responsible for the licensing process for the 25 Sector Skills Councils."

from wikipedia

a "Non-Departmental Public Body" is, according to wikipedia;

"In the United Kingdom, a Non-Departmental Public Body (NDPB) is a classification applied by the Cabinet Office, Treasury and Scottish Government to certain types of public bodies. They are not an integral part of a government department and carry out their work at arm's length from Ministers, although Ministers are ultimately responsible to Parliament for the activities of bodies sponsored by their department.

...

NDPB differ from executive agencies as they are not created to carry out ministerial orders or policy, instead they are more or less self-determining and enjoy greater independence. They are also not directly part of government like a non-ministerial government department being at a remove from both ministers and any elected assembly or parliament. Typically an NDPB would be established under statute and be accountable to Parliament rather than to Her Majesty's Government. This arrangement allows more financial independence since the government is obliged to provide funding to meet statutory obligations.

NDPBs are commonly referred to as quangos. However, this term originally referred to bodies that are, at least ostensibly, non-government organisations, but nonetheless perform governmental functions.

...

Critics argued that the system was open to abuse as most NDPBs had their members directly appointed by government ministers without an election or consultation with the people. The press, critical of what was perceived as the Conservatives' complacency in power in the 1990s, presented much material interpreted as evidence of questionable government practices.

This concern led to the formation of a Committee on Standards in Public Life[5] (the Nolan Committee) which first reported in 1995 and recommended the creation of a public appointments commissioner to make sure that appropriate standards were met in the appointment of members of QUANGOs. The Government accepted the recommendation, and the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments[6] was established in November 1995.

The use of NDPBs has continued under the Labour government in office since 1997, but the political controversy associated with NDPBs in the mid-1990s has now for the most part died away. It is not entirely clear why this occurred, though proponents of the Labour Government claim it as a result of their reforms.

Before 1997, the incoming Labour Government promised to reduce the number and power of NDPBs. Some question whether this has really happened."

Sector Skills Councils and the Alliance of Sector Skills Councils

"Sector Skills Councils (SSCs) are state-sponsored, employer-led organisations that cover specific economic sectors in the United Kingdom. They have four key goals:

* to reduce skills gaps and shortages
* to improve productivity
* to boost the skills of their sector workforces
* to improve learning supply.

SSCs achieve these aims by contributing to the development of National Occupational Standards, the design and approval of Apprenticeship frameworks, brokering Sector Skills Agreements and creating Sector Qualification Strategies.

...

There are currently twenty-five SSCs, covering about 85 per cent of the British workforce. SSCs are licensed by the Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills, in consultation with Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

The Sector Skills Development Agency (SSDA) was formerly responsible for for funding, supporting and monitoring SSCs and for overseeing industries that fell outside an SSC footprint. From 1st April 2008, the SSDA was replaced by the UK Commission for Employment and Skills and the Alliance for Sector Skills Councils comprising all 25 Sector Skills Councils (SSCs)."

from wikipedia

the Alliance for Sector Skills Councils site seems very unfinished past the first few pages....

CCSkills

"Creative & Cultural Skills is the Sector Skills Council for Advertising, Crafts, Cultural Heritage, Design, Music, Performing, Literary and Visual Arts. We bridge the gap between industry, education and the government, to give employers a real influence over education and skills in the UK.

Founded in May 2004, Creative & Cultural Skills was granted its licence to operate by the Sector Skills Development Agency on 1st June, 2005.

We are not a quango or funding body, and we are not just here to promote government policy. We're part of the sector we have been established to serve. Our Chairman is Tony Hall CBE, Chief Executive of the Royal Opera House, and our Chief Executive is Tom Bewick. Our board of directors is made up of high profile representatives from the creative and cultural industries."

"Chief Executive of the Royal Opera House" - hehe, made me think of this yes minister ep

so, they've a board with 'important' people on it. their Corperate Info page gives, no information. their website isn't a .gov.uk, and looking at a whois on their address gives;"
Domain name:
ccskills.org.uk

Registrant:
Creative & Cultural Industries Limited

Registrant type:
UK Limited Company, (Company number: 5122855)

Registrant's address:
Creative & Cultural Industries Limited
4th Floor, Lafone House
The Leathermarket
Weston St
London
SE1 3HN
GB
that address matches the one in the letter to ryan. a google search for "Creative & Cultural Industries Limited" gives 0 results.

companies house says;
Status: Active
Date of Incorporation: 07/05/2004

Country of Origin: United Kingdom
Company Type: PRI/LTD BY GUAR/NSC (Private, limited by guarantee, no share capital)
Nature of Business (SIC(03)):
7487 - Other business activities
Accounting Reference Date: 31/03
Last Accounts Made Up To: 31/03/2007 (FULL)
Next Accounts Due: 31/01/2009
Last Return Made Up To: 07/05/2007
Next Return Due: 04/06/2008 OVERDUE
by what process were they licensed?

anyway.

‘internet café’ idea? what exactly did they originally want to do? can they get someone in to show us exactly what they'd be showing others before the festival? did they specifically mention just one or two days?

the real that is the forest? are we in the business of communality or reciprocity based social structures? well, we do things for free, but we're not anti-market economy. should we be helping the government in some way? well, they're promoting how to get employed. do the government promote the end of the scale we come from, i.e, not-for-profits, social centres and the like? they do when they use the term 'social enterprise', but this proposed link is the closest i've seen the world of forest like organisations meeting the government in the uk. anyone got examples where things have gone further?

i think it would be great it the government gave grants to organisations to start their own social centres and created more legal help/space for such groups that sit between 'charity'' and 'enterprise'. there was talk about a north edinburgh community café a few months ago. i wonder what kind of help they could have got from the authorities..
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Post by milk » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:19 am

the chap i'm staying with atm, who has formerly done research for his sister who is a labour mp, says they are obstentiablly (sp?) still a quango, not that that's essentially a bad thing..
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Post by Jimmy Bastard » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:36 am

Thanks for aiming to crunch that down but I've read it three times and I can't process zip reality.
I trust there's good reason for that too.
Pseuds, soul suckers, busy c unts with their invented bureaucracies of wilful bullshit.
Give them a table for free and set fire to them.
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Post by amelia » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:05 am

Though bored by the first half-sentence of the original email, I pressed on, and what was clearly mentioned was for them to be able to "register people", though what they were offering was not clearly mentioned.

To have a table where they can register people and to have given notice of this, and then to be welcomed to share space, is to be condoning what it is they are doing and we just aren't sure. It is therefore not appropriate I feel, regardless of what we may personally think.

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Post by amelia » Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:17 am

What I suggest IS appropriate is to thank them in their interest in Edinburgh's creativity, which is rife within the forest, but that we are unable to make an informed decision at this time and, this close to the festival. However, they are welcome to hold an information day/eve/event at the forest and to give them the standard protocol for this.

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Post by Shannon » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:37 am

Sounds like the people have spoken. Again, if they want to be a paying hall customer, fine. Otherwise, let's hook them up with Chakan.

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Post by ravanwin » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:33 pm

fine points all and i agree. will dismiss this.
ryan

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Post by milk » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:54 pm

"but that we are unable to make an informed decision at this time and, this close to the festival."

"fine points all and i agree. will dismiss this"

wait a sec. yes, we're unsure because we don't know what the heck they want to do and my question still stands - could someone from them come in and tell/show us? the ambiguity of it all is what people aren't happy with right now.

has anyone actually registered with the site they want to pimp? did last night but am not in a position right now where i can check my e-mail for the registration conformation.
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Post by amelia » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:56 pm

But haven't we got enough to do, I certainly do, and if these people can't adequately promote themselves then what help are they to anyone.

Giving them all this time is well over and above what they would receive anywhere else. The 'who you know' strategy was being adopted by them here without following protocol.

Holding an information event/thingy in the forest building is suitable and maybe next year we will want to ask them to join in with us.

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Post by milk » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:34 am

what time would it take of us? 15-20 mins in a WG meeting, then they'd be doing things for themselves on the days in question.

without following protocol? is discussing things on the bb before real life meetings not following protocol? is it protocol to dismiss things like this before they're brought in a real life meeting?
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Post by Jimmy Bastard » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:33 am

personally I couldn't care a toss about protocol.
if you feel this has been ignorantly dismissed out of hand then add it to an agenda point at a meeting.
i would say it better sorted on the BB as there's a tump of online information to push through.
although i would be lying if i said i read anything other than a small fraction of it.
so my opinion isn't fully informed.
but a quick scan still leaves my bullshit detector high in the red.

their language betrays them
'unemployment and workless-ness are high in many boroughs.'

'this is focused on the Liverpool as European Capital of Culture 2008 and the 'cultural offer'of the other North West Cities.'

'...knowledge based clusters...'


i feel uncomfortable giving a platform to people who choose to communicate in such a manner.
how can it add up to anything but the enemy of art.
now check this
see how many times the words culture and cultural get used on this one page.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:ao ... cd=1&gl=uk
34 times!
who are they trying to hoodwink?
the whole thing still reads like a few bigwigs getting greased at the top end of the chain.
consider their focus on all things Olympics.
when the Olympics gets mentioned you can safely read big business.
absurd spiralling costs met with taxes in units of billions.
£675 million stolen from Lottery funding
and so it goes
it's grim reading if you take a little time to look into it.
elsewhere they speak a lot of 'flagship projects' but i can't find any actual detail of even one of them.
even their lousy acronyms don't make shit for sense
'The South West Development Economic Development Agency
(SWERDA) has recently reviewed its creative industries strategy, developing a South West Creative Economy Partnership.['/i]
(when oh when will the 'r' go back into SWERDA...?)
at worse they are bogus and at best they are suspect.
my personal stance remains - a firm fuck off.
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Post by Jimmy Bastard » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:37 am

'Whenever I hear the word culture, I reach for my revolver.'
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Post by ravanwin » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:40 am

um, the woman i know, is gonna come in for a chat with me. i said - this all sounds like b.s. and she semi-agreed. she is going to try to clarify what they are on about but i suspect she won't be able to do it. i don't think there is a lack of protocol here. we did more than any other group would do and i'm still going to have a sit down. however, they are asking for something from us - to be aligned with our organization. that's a big favor considering our reputation and the time of year. to say know after this much debate is, i think, quite reasonable.

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Post by Shannon » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:07 pm

Totally agree with Dai.

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Post by amelia » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:53 am

Hey all. My reference to protocol was them not considering ours; and ours is whatever we think/want/feel to do. Certainly with a collective consensus, but I am all about freedom and only was pointing out that I felt they should at least be going to some of the effort and time that I felt was being out in by us.

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Post by amelia » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:11 am

...that's put in by us I meant to say, sorry a typo. I'm taking out the o and putting a p back in. I agree with Dai about their language use. The original email is written in a condescending tone I haven't come across in a while and it can only do them, and, their level of representation good, to have us raise their standard of approach and manner.

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quango arts

Post by spark » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:17 pm

In my extensive experiences with jobcentre etc it is increasingly becoming a situation of 'people farming'.
The rich making money out of the poorest people in our society. Being herded around so that these quango's can make money out of us.
I was phoned the other day by a private co. who during the call, threatened me with my benefit.
They are getting out of hand and this sounds like a clever ploy of infiltration to me.
And yes, I can see the other side, though these people tend to use a coin with two heads or two tails.
LOVE IS CHANGING EVERYTHING

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