cave reborn ...!?!

nix · **Joined:** Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:49 am **Posts:** 1231

we have this great Artists Facility, "the cave"!

It can it work well.

So, it is usable again. tidy and Equipped. me and Matt tested cables and sorted shit out. A couple of people have been rehearsing and workshops have been happening. lets get the income rolling!

I propose:
We have a Cave upkeep session and Induction meeting every week, thurs, 6-8.
I will be there every week.

we have an 'cave use agreement' document that new users sign.

and that there hands be ritualistically photocopied and stuck to the wall. so as to symbolism that they have a hand in the room and are part of a collective project.

that we operate a policy of trust and respect and people will trust and respect.

we still use the online calendar... its shit, but if we reverted to a paper Cave Book that was in the cafe drawer, it would mean more work for the kitchen.

... Draft cave use agreement ...

1. I agree to use this room nicely and to respect the space and equipment therein.

2. I will pay for the time I use, at £5 per hour, and put it in the box by the door.

3. I will pay for any booking that I do not use, unless I cancel the booking at least 24hours notice.

4. I will tidy up after myself and not behave like a pig!

5. I will take full responsibility for my guests. I will not have more that 3 guest in the room. (more than 4 in yer band? then two people have to become users.

6. I will not fuck shit up. If something breaks I will report it on the bb.

7. I will have fun and use the space to create great music.

Shannon · **Posted:** Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:41 pm

Digging it.

Gandhi · **Posted:** Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:36 am

me likey

danny · **Posted:** Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:43 am

We should most definately add this to the list. I think keeping a clean penis is important. We have it as one of the rules for users of the old cave, so I don't see how the new cave should be any different. Or maybe you actually want
people with dirty penises* playing there? Is that what you're up to? If there is some sort of filthy bell end conspiracy that I don't know about then someone needs to let me know what's happening. Maybe it's something that gets discussed only in the Forest's highly secretive "inner ring"? Who are these inner-ring-peace-police anyway? And why should we listen to what they have to say? I heard that you have weird sexual parties and all dance about naked with cocks flapping about and muff hair everywhere! What kind of system is this? Could someone please BE SERIOUS.
I insist that penile hygene be top of the agenda for the next meeting.

* - the accurate plural of penis may actually be "peni"

Gandhi · **Posted:** Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:32 am

Danny...for someone who says that they are a hetrosexual male, you don't half talk about other mens cocks a lot!
Don't be scared Danny, let the world know! You've been stuck in your cramped little closet too long...break free Danny!...we will not think any less of you...well we can't, its mentally impossible! hahaha

Shannon · **Posted:** Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:31 am

What the fuck?

dan · **Joined:** Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:04 pm **Posts:** 1410

Shannon wrote:

What the fuck?

seconded

Gandhi · **Posted:** Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:31 pm

I'll explain.
For some unknown reason Danny thought it was appropriate to write lots of crap about the cleanliness of people penises. I wrote back stating that his obsession with penises is relatively odd and is probably due to some deep seeded issues regarding his sexuality.
end of story.

On a more serious note though, how exactly are we going to resolve the problem with the cave, in terms of people being able to use it. Some of them just want to use and pay for the space- and therefore will be reluctant to come to a Working group meeting...they'll just go elsewhere as there are plenty of other rehearsal spaces.

Are we going to charge a flat rate of £5 no matter what time of the day it is? i for one agree that we should do this as you can pay £8 in other places and have all the equipment (except your instrument) there...whereas here, there is no guarantee what equipment there will be when you turn up. We will lose out on business if we overcharge.
If we are going to charge £8 then we should buy in some equipment.

How do we get round, getting into the room- not everyone who uses it should have the keycode as i think this seriously reduce the security of the place....then again we don't want people pestering the volunteers in the kitchen for keycodes as most of them don't know it, and they're busy doing other stuff!

Who owns all the random equipment in there?

Does it need to be soundproofed more?

Who is officially in charge of the cave?-I understand that everything should be decided by the working group but we need to have someone who can run the thing properly and make sure the rules are adheared to. They also need to be the Caves contact number for users.

Can we get rid of all the tables in there- people bring drinks and leave crap all of them. Drinks might be a fire hazard around all the electrics! Instead we could have a cupboard filled with all the cables etc, instead of random boxes everywhere.

we really need to establish who we are aiming the use of the cave at! Volunteers/potential volunteers or anyone!
just some thoughts.

beev · **Joined:** Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:46 am **Posts:** 1626

We could use an old-fashioned key lock and make people pay a £10-20 deposit for the key.

Also, a camera could be considered for rooting out thieves and litterbugs. May sound a bit extreme, but it seems to have worked in the gallery, and no genuine privacy concerns have surfaced so far.

ravanwin · **Posted:** Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:52 pm

of course the camera in the gallery doesn't actually work.

andy raises some good points here though and i second and third the notion of getting rid of tables and getting in less boxes and more "proper" storage space.

One thing we could do is make the cave smaller by moving it to the live siences room. nix has taken on a lot of the workload in terms of being wg facilitator but i'm not sure he's keen to have his name / number attached to the cave. people will call ALL THE TIME.

codes are ok, but difficult to change.

swipe cards?

there is a basic plan in action: have weekly meet the cave meetings on thursdays
where new users will get access to the cave and told what it's about. if they appear insane, they will be barred.

nix probbaly has more info than me. but, plans are a foot.
r

Gandhi · **Posted:** Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:23 pm

I've never been in the Live Sciences room, but if it smaller (but not too small) and more manageable then we should most definately consider it. We should only really move though if we know exactly what we should be doing with the Cave room. Its a great space!
Swipe cards would be a good idea, so we can at least trace things if they go missing!...would the system also allow us to track how long and which people have been in there? i know it also sounds big brotheresque blah blah but it would mean we could stay on top of what people should be paying for in terms of time spent in the room...then again that probably a bit too hi tech

or we could get rid of the practice room all together!! :roll:

How much money does it generate? How often is it used? how often don't people pay and we don't realise?...I'll try to come to the next Cave meeting

Martin · **Joined:** Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:35 pm **Posts:** 1081

At the relatively cheap end for card access are systems like this:

http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shop ... -570-p.asp

This uses proximity swipe cards, which seems to work out the same price or cheaper than the magnetic swipe type these days. Cards cost about a quid each.

I doubt any system this cheap will log who's going in and out. That'd probably cost a whole lot more, or I could try to persuade the dorkbot crew to work on a DIY version on the cheap.

Shannon · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:59 pm

Helpful email from the rampART social centre in London on their system:

Quote:

I thought other spaces might be interested in the solutions we've
implemented at the rampART relating to access issues.

Like most places, we started with normal locks and keys but soon grew
to dislike them. Keys can be copied once you give or loan them out.
They propagate by themselves. If one person losses them you must
replace them all and this can cost a fortune if you are using
security locks.

We avoided combination padlocks generally. They are great but require
people to shut and lock the door behind them which is fine for
cupboards but often no good on normal doors which you want to remain
locked most of the time while allowing those beyond them to be able
to get out.

Mechanical push button locks were our answer initially. They cost
about 25 pounds on ebay http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?
sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&from=R10&satitle=push+code
+lock&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D3&fsop=1%26fsoo%
3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search (upto 60 in the
shops). You can give people the code in person (or even over the
phone if need be). Codes do propagate (even more easily than keys are
copied), getting passed on thoughtlessly or maliciously - however you
can change the codes on a regular basis to limit the problem. We gave
out codes during weekend long gatherings so everyone could get in at
will and then changed the codes after the event. However, they are
quite a pain to change and since each lock can only have one code,
whenever we changed the code we had to find a way to inform all those
who had need for the new code, all the different groups using the
space, a nightmare.

Finally we installed electronic keypad locks with RFID. Now we can
give regular users of the space a keyfob which opens the door, no
code to remember! Unlike a key, it can not be copied. Also, unlike a
key, if one is lost we just disable that one without effecting
everyone else and without the cost of replacing the whole set. We can
also create and give out passcodes instead of keyfobs (and you can
give them to people over the phone in emergencies). These are great
for visitors and because you can have more than one at a time, you
can delete a code without effecting everyone. For example, we might
have a weekend long gathering of twenty people and give them all one
code but at the same time we might have a couple of people staying as
guests for a week and they can have a different code. At the end of
the gathering we can delete one code and leave the other until the
guests leave.

This system might sound like it would be expensive but it's not. The
rfid keypads cost under twenty pounds at the moment (16 pounds on
ebay http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?
sofocus=unknown&sbrftog=1&from=R10&satitle=rfid+door&sacat=-1%26catref
%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D3&fsop=1&fsoo=1 (with 5 or 8 keyfobs,
normally a pound each)) plus the electric door strike which costs
about ten quid. It's about the same cost as a mechanical push button
lock.

When compared to a normal yale lock etc it's obviously more expensive
initially but once you've cut a set of keys for everyone and then had
to replace them when one goes missing, you'll soon appreciate the
savings.

Gandhi · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:08 pm

wow- thats excellent. thanks shannon

ravanwin · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:15 pm

buy buy buy,

install install install?
r

Gandhi · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:31 pm

yes yes yes....maybe
we still need work out how to handle the key fobs though.
Do cave users pay a deposit for one of the fobs? Do they pay a deposit when they come in to get a fob, then give the key back after their practice?...if so who do they pay a deposit to and whoh gives them the key? Kitchen vollies? kitchen managers?...or is that a no no?
aaaaaagh my brains hurting :cry:

nix · **Joined:** Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:49 am **Posts:** 1231

I reacon we go for a traditional key lock with a key in the cave drawer in the kitchen.

One public key.

people won't take it away and copty it. restricts out-of-hours use. is cheap and easy.

We can fit it today. no farting around and no great expence.

A seperate lock for the small cupbord (the one with the sink) to store other equipment...

lets keep it simple.

laura · **Posted:** Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:29 am

Quote:

people won't take it away and copty it.

Really? How can we ensure that?

Gandhi · **Posted:** Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:40 am

It will get lost, copied, broken, blah blah. Keys are a bad idea, they will cause us hassle.

Quote:

Like most places, we started with normal locks and keys but soon grew
to dislike them. Keys can be copied once you give or loan them out.
They propagate by themselves. If one person losses them you must
replace them all and this can cost a fortune if you are using
security locks.

Martin · **Joined:** Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:35 pm **Posts:** 1081

Yeah, one key is a problem. It will get "lost", a new one will have to be made or the lock changed, and then you will find out that it was actually in someone's pocket and is now in circulation along with umpteen copies, which are being used by people to get drunk and sleep and piss in there. We have been through all this with infoseed.

ravanwin · **Posted:** Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:18 pm

i like shannon's idea: building crew!

r

graeme · **Joined:** Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:52 pm **Posts:** 312

Me likey electronic fobby idea.
If a fob could open more than one door our KMs would no longer have to look like prison warders, unless they have carefully cultivated and cherish that look of course!

chris · **Posted:** Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:46 pm

electronic thing has always been the dream, however it taskes us a step further away from being technology free by 2010... :(

Martin · **Joined:** Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:35 pm **Posts:** 1081

it's not technology, it's magic.

Shannon · **Posted:** Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:06 am

My dream is to be key free by 2010.

Gandhi · **Posted:** Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:05 pm

The cave working group are all apparently still convinced the 1 key idea is the best...I say to you...YOU ARE WRONG!
Please do not go fit a new key lock until we discuss things further.

1 Key...key gets lost...we then (for security reasons) have to change the whole blooming thing again.

If you are worried about the costs of an elctric thing, then that is a fair point which needs to be discussed, but by the time we have changed the locks 5 times, we'd have spent the same amount as having a elctronic key fobb device.

1 key fobb...fobb gets lost...we go downstairs and change the keycode immediately making the lost key fobb unusable...end of security nightmare.

technology free...you know that the building is technology right? the technology used to build the bricks would mean that we would either have to smash the walls down (although technology was used to make the sledgehammer) or move out to a field...and carry all the technology (no hold on..leave all the decks and stuff (technology) in the rubble of bricks), and walk to a field untouched by human hand, all of this being done naked as the technology to make clothing would have to be taken into account. I for one a up for this

Can we start a new thread called "Stories from a Technology Free World"

beev · **Joined:** Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:46 am **Posts:** 1626

Shannon wrote:

My dream is to be key free by 2010.

Agree with this. I hate keys!

And we have spent loads on getting new keys cut over the years, especially recently. RFID system would rock! Just search rfid on ebay. By 2013, we could get them implanted in our heads...

beev · **Joined:** Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:46 am **Posts:** 1626

Spent on keys in July/Aug/Sept: £85

Shannon · **Posted:** Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:53 pm

And at least two or three of the keys cut for me turned out not to work...

Gandhi · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:32 am

well there we have it...keys are shit.
can someone in the know have a look at the costs of getting a electronic thingy, and how much it would cost to fit?

bill · **Joined:** Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:43 pm **Posts:** 608

there is absolutely no way we will save money via this electronic key thing. absolutely not. a mortice lock new cost 20/25 squid. each key costs 2.30 squid. we have mortice locks now in forest.

or a chubb/yale lock like we have on the office door is cheaper. a key can exist in the cafe. when it is lost you can alter the lock and make a copy. this is also cheap. we keep one key and one spare. it lives behind the til. like the darkroom one. a band could swap it for a tenner? and get it back when they give it back.

really. i think electronic things will use far more time, energy and money from us all.

anyway i have seen mission impossible and they can be broken just as easy.

bill · **Joined:** Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:43 pm **Posts:** 608

oh also i think one day we could have electronic locks just that the cave usage doesn't warrent all the faff

Gandhi · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:05 pm

what about the amount of time wasted fitting and buying new locks?

Mission Impossible starred Tom Cruise and everyone knows that man is a modern day Jesus and can do anything he wants...including bypass electronic security systems. You cannot judge the skills of Joe Public against this man...it is unfair and unrealistic.

Fuck it, buy the locks and keys....just in case Tom Cruise wants to steal our crappy Cave drumkit!

ravanwin · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:28 pm

i say electro-fob.

it is amazing and not just good for the cave but for everyone in the building. the workshop and everything. it's great.

get them.

r

nix · **Joined:** Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:49 am **Posts:** 1231

The key for the cave door is somthing I want to sort today.

Yes, if the concensus is that we get electronic system, great.

but, right here right now we need the cave door to be scure.

I want to fit a yale lock today, we have the lock itself, the barrel costs 8 quid and comes with three keys.

can I fit it?

or are we still debateratering?

peace and security.

N.

bill · **Joined:** Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:43 pm **Posts:** 608

nick i think it will definately be quicker to change the pin code on the door than fit another lock. also this is free. keys and locks aren't. lets do that until we make a decision"?

Martin · **Joined:** Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:35 pm **Posts:** 1081

Okay, on the keyfob systems front:

There are systems like this all over eBay from Hong Kong sellers for about 20 quid plus whatever customs fucks you for when you import it. Note that this does not include the lock mechanism itself, just the controller and key fobs. Here's one for example:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0162012346

There is also a guy over in Fife selling a complete kit including the lock for £57.50 inc. post. He sells these regularly so we could get a second compatible unit off him later if we wanted to extend to another door.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0163233829

Martin · **Joined:** Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:35 pm **Posts:** 1081

<i>there is absolutely no way we will save money via this electronic key thing. absolutely not. a mortice lock new cost 20/25 squid. each key costs 2.30 squid.</i>

mechanical:

20 quid for a lock + 2.30 each for 10 keys = 43 quid

electronic:

lock with 10 keys included = 57 quid

So it's 14 quid more initially. Big deal.

But when a keyfob gets lost, the cost is a quid for a new one. When a key gets lost, the cost is that 43 quid all over again plus a shitload of hassle in changing the lock and getting new keys to everyone. Whichever we fit will be the third lock/code for the cave already. Do you really think it won't happen again?

swithun · **Joined:** Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:24 am **Posts:** 2475

The one from Fife is nice. It mentions that you can have customised software for these. That means they're hackable, so someone clever could work out how to log door events I imagine. Then we would know who used the Cave when.

Martin · **Joined:** Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:35 pm **Posts:** 1081

We wouldn't know if they're hackable by us until I've opened one up and poked. Tweaking the software may require documentation or tools we can't get. Happy to try it if we get one but I wouldn't lean on that as a selling point.

nix · **Joined:** Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:49 am **Posts:** 1231

I will try and change the code A.S.A.P.

ravanwin · **Posted:** Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:57 am

carefull, the pin code is difficult.
r

ravanwin · **Posted:** Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:00 pm

also:

can someone DRILL the book into the door as promised. I'm not a big fan of the book hanging in that hallway.

speaking of: wasn't someone supposed to sort that workshop / hallway out recently? who was said they would do that?
r

graeme · **Joined:** Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:52 pm **Posts:** 312

There is at least one new and unused lock barrel with 3 keys in the workshop if you need it.

bill · **Joined:** Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:43 pm **Posts:** 608

we have loads of locks kicking about. they work. they are free. lets use them. where are these other space locks made? i guess they need wiring up to the mains too?

bill · **Joined:** Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:43 pm **Posts:** 608

if we buy a cheap electronic lock it will be a complete piece of shit no doubt? i really really think that it is not something we should biother with.

Gandhi · **Posted:** Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:51 pm

its getting a bit silly now. Lots of people want electronic locks, lots don't. it seems like as soon as we say we are gonna get electronic locks we get told to use the thousands of locks lying around.
fair enough.
Bill you win.
just use the locks because this ain't going nowhere and will just slow the plans for the Cave down.
But don't cry when the keys gets stolen/lost and you have to change the whole thing again...and i won't cry about not being able to pretend i live in the future where all doors unlock by waving plastic things in front of them.

beev · **Joined:** Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:46 am **Posts:** 1626

Let's just keep our eyes and ears peeled for a decent electronic system that can solve all our problems and won't cost a fortune. In the meantime, we do what we normally do.

nospoons · **Posted:** Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:42 pm

electronic locks, yey, we can like hang them around our necks, maybe with a bit of photo ID to, should be cafefull tho, may get confused with Standard Life Empoyees. Next we could float the forest on the stock market

Velcro would be a good idea fer the doorbook (as would keeping to what is agreed in meetings but then thats another issue)

Clean penis always a good idea as smegma does tend to calcify after time, although i would exclude females and post op trans people from this

graeme · **Joined:** Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:52 pm **Posts:** 312

I hadn't thought of that, maybe one day my Standard Life pass will also work in the Forest, and we can implement an appropriate business dress policy at the same time. And we will need lanyards

Forest BB

cave reborn ...!?!

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