A Proposal to Create a Recording Studio in the Forest Cafe

Action room, screen printing, darkroom, Bristo Hall, Cave, AV equipment
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bill
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A Proposal to Create a Recording Studio in the Forest Cafe

Postby bill » Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:32 pm

i was chatting to some friends aboutdoing this. i got them to write there idea. here it is. it could be hot. and mean a good axtra earner for forest.

"We would like to use the small room located behind the walk in freezer as a control room to be linked to the cave (regardless of where the cave ends up) which will be used as the live room. The recordings would be run by myself, sten and james clark, both studying sound production at the jewel and esk valley college. We suggest that we would rent the cave at the hourly rate(£5p/hour) and pay a percentage of our earnings to the forest in addition to cover the rent of the control room. we only require space big enough for two chairs and a desk, so using a currently unused space would seem ideal. we aim to provide industry standard and affordable facilities, a bit like the cave and darkroom. we would buy a shitload (one thousand smackers) of pro audio equipment to make us hot (industry standard (like kate moss)). we would be happy to give technical spec if anybody requires it. we have both volunteered in the forest doing sound/kitchen stuff. we dig the forest.

we would also be available to record forest projects as volunteers (for free). we can also do mastering.
these are just our preliminary ideas and we are very open to suggestions/ideas of how such a project could be realised.


what do you think?"



is there a better place to post this?if so someone feel free to move it.
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Postby Gandhi » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:19 pm

could be exciting.
definately potential and a nice little earner
me likey...its just whether its possible.
could definately open up some avenues for the thousands of musicians lurking in our woodland!
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bill
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Postby bill » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:29 pm

oh and also. james' father is a building and can do it all for free. they are cool to do the work to make this happen. i say yes! go now!
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Postby bill » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:29 pm

i mean of course that his father is a builder far more than he is a building.
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Postby bill » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:10 pm

ok so now that is decided. we need to know what forest think is a fair percentagfe cut to charge.

here is an example/gcse maths question.

sten and james charge £320 for 16hrs recording time
(£20pounds per hour)

after giving £80 to forest for the cave hourly rate they are left with
£240 which is £15p/hr for them.

if forest then hoicks %15 of that the forezst makes a further £36 totaling a whopping £116 for 16hrs of forest time.

leaving a £204 for team recording (£12.75 p/hr) which for two people seems small. who knows what they think.

----------------------------------------------------------------

maybe we should strike a deal which says. you do the building work. you pay for cave rental and we only 5% of there dough for first 5 months of something.

with this new maths forest makes £92 for 16hrs cave time

james and sten make £238 (£14.87 per hour)



what do peeps think?


--------------------------------------------------------------------

i think this project is good because it will up the cave revenue quite a bit. it will mean more in house recordings at affordable prices. they will do the work. they are good peoples to be encouraging to be around the forest. they will lure in new peoples like dropping blood into the water.
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Postby Gandhi » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:21 pm

sounds much fairer.
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the studio

Postby sten » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:06 am

hi guys, can't tell you how glad we are, tickled pink in fact!
we off to the bank today and we are attempting to purchase a sweet vintage analogue 24 track mixer to go with the digital one. exciting. The first step is the building work obviously so we'll speak to james' dad and see when hes free.
speak soon

take it sleazy
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moving on

Postby sten » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:20 pm

hi everyone, me and james are moving on full steam ahead with preperations for this studio. Everything seems to be coming together niceley and the money is pretty much secured. There have been no more posts since it was agreed that it could go ahead but we would appreciate some more feedback just to make sure we are still a ok! We are just gonna continue until some one says stop so message us if have a problem! tops.
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time and space

Postby sten » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:45 pm

hi, i've heard it on the grapevine that people are a little worried about how much time this will take away from the cave's primary role, i.e practice space. Have no fear bout it, i think that in all honesty the chances of us getting more than one person to record a month(16-20hrs) is minimal. If however this did happen we have no problem with limiting ourselves to a set amount of time per month/week so as not to intefere. i hope that clarifys stuff.
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Postby bill » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:19 pm

ok peoples last chances........thsi project is a go go
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Postby Gaz » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:41 am

Here I got a message from Sten:

Hi. i think you have heard about mine and james plan for the cave. Altough we have raised a considerable fraction of the amount we need there is some more bits and bobs we haven't got for sure. We were wondering if we could apply for any of the forest grants? We would prefer the quarterly one(300?) to buy a full drum micing set from shure, its 282 pounds. Obviously this would stay with the forest as forest property but would be under our tenureship to start with to garuntee its use! if think this is worth persuing could message me back with the next steps. cheers


I think the costs should be paid for by the cave's budget and not the grants budget. It doesn't really fit in with what the quarterly grant is for.

Related to this...why are these guys raising their own money to pay for this? Maybe it's a good idea they are or maybe not. Why not the forest pays for and 'owns' this recording studio thing outright? How much will it cost to get this happening all in?
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sten
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us payin for all this gubbins

Postby sten » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:14 am

hi, me and james are investing £2000 - £2500 to start with, this is just to get the prelimanry recordings while we get used to the equipment, going up to £3500 - £4500 for the finished project. We also use a tower computer which we've already own and wasn't all that cheap! Although there are obvious benefits to this being a forest project, the technicalities of having multiple people operating the stuff would be possibly nightmarish. The stuff is complex and tiny things can have enormous consequences and, as any one who has used pro-audio equipment will know, it can take an age too go through every variable that could cause a recording session to stop. If people were paying to use this stuff then time is of the essence. Any support, from the cave or otherwise, would be welcome and the reason i suggested mics was because that is something that can be used without much prior knowledge. For example, i know that the is a 12 track recorder at the forest which could be used by anyone, along with some shared microphones? We are happy to invest because we will need this equipment for years to come and its transportable.
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Postby Gaz » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:47 am

ok. interesting. 4.5 grand is too much for the forest - it's the kind of thing we would have applied for a grant for but even if successful it would have been many many months from now before seeing the money.
so if you guys are happy to go ahead and buy the stuff that's fine.

just seeing what the situation is....
it's great that you're making this happen.

so going back to the mics thing.
does the forest want to own a set of drum mics?
the only thing i can think of is that we could use them with the 8-track.
if so we could buy.
if not then not.

another question.

what do you guys think of the sound proofing in there?
do we need to get going on the false ceiling?
are you going to create booths??

my knowledge is quite limited but is there a lot of work to be done?
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sten
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it

Postby sten » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:29 am

hey, the mics could also be used for live performance in the hall upstairs, though that could be overkill on less rocky gigs!
bills told me about there being a lot of sound bleeding into the forest from the cave, i'm not entirely sure how much we'ed have to do to totally sound proof it but there are cheaper ways than a false ceiling. The biggest offender for noise issues are your bass frequencies and that can be solved with whats called a bass trap. This is a stack of wooden blocks shaped to fit the corners of a room which absorb the worst of them. To stop the treble frequencies i would probably suggest foam ceiling tiles which would cost about £200 for enough to cover the ceiling but thats if you buy official sound proffing for a studio and much less if we find a good source. Add on to that the labour (free!) And it should only cost about £3/400.
The vocals booths will be made up with 3 2x1 metre panelsin a square with an open side to add a bit of life to the recording so no worries there.
There is alot of work to do but in if we do it in stages it just means we will gradually introduce new options to what we can succesfully record i.e it will be totally capable of acoustic stuff/singer songwriter on a guitar and small ensembles straight way leading up to full space attack prog super rock for 100 peice electric guitar orchestra. maybe.
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Martin
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Postby Martin » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:38 pm

It's really just the bass that escapes to the other rooms - that's what makes it particularly annoying actually, as it usually doesn't sound that musical on its own...
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Postby ravanwin » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:17 pm

if you can soundproof that room. forest would be very happy and we would give you the rewards of a true sound warrior.
please.
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cfgh

Postby sten » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:18 am

if a sound based spirit quest is required of a warrior what can he do but accept?! I'll start putting a qoute together over the next couple of days so bear with me and i'll come back to you guys on this one.
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big up, big up... and watch out

Postby nix » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:51 pm

It is so amazing that we will have a recording studio in the forest...

I have one major concern:
at the moment, the cave functions well as a practice room, offering a much needed facility to the community, with shared use this facility will be reduced .. and I suppose if the studio is working well, might get removed.. as in... the room will be booked by the studio and the practicalities of this (i.e. Don't Move the Mics) might mean that there will simply be no space for a practice room, this would be a great shame.

Maybe we could extend into another room? and have a practice room and a recording room. this is not such a wild idea..(we have a spare crappy drum kit...)

I know this project is going ahead and that is great, but as a community we need to look out for and support all Artists... even Musicians who need more practice!
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multi tool

Postby sten » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:35 pm

hi, i really don't think theres anything to worry about. It will be standard practice to have recording sessions finished and cleared up in the time we've booked. I've already said in this thread that i think that the priority is the practice rooms and we'll limit ourselves if there is a high demand to make sure it stays like that. Also the forest is a multi faceted community centre and i don't think that the best use of space would be to have two rooms dedicatde to music when theres so much other stuff going on.
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Postby bill » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:59 am

yes i agree. it is important to preserve the cave as a practice room, but i don't think that the amount of time sten and james can offer is enough to make it only useful for recordings. they both study for example. if and when booking the cave becomes problem perhaps then we could look into expanding into another room?
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Postby Shannon » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:30 pm

Yes, good points Bill and Sten. This all sounds very gooood.
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building

Postby sten » Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:40 pm

hi, so we've hit our firstproblem, altough it is far from insurmountable. An architect has told us that to make the door we will need a lintel, the wall is load bearing but the style of construction means that all the walls down there are so there won't be any realistic danger working on this. However i beleive a lintel is beyond the grasp of ourselves so if ANYONE knmows a builder who would sympathetic to our cause please help us get in contact. We can afford to pay them but not really proper builders rates. Also can anyone tell me where else i should post this for more responses?
cheers
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Postby dan » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:50 am

hi there,
just checking you guys have got building warrants and things for this? I guess it's up to Forest if they want them or not, but if no it could get tricky in the future...
D xx
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Postby ravanwin » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:38 pm

the proposal to sound proof the cave needs more details regarding plasterboard:

our source says:
OK I can get that quote. But I need to know how many sheets. Each is 1220 by 2440 mm (or 1 meter 220 cm by 2 meters 440 cm)
Kim

soo... whats the word?
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soundproof

Postby sten » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:08 pm

sorry for lack of contact, been on a fact finding mission to london. will get accurate measurements tomorrow. peas.
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Postby Gandhi » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:09 pm

anyone know where to get their hands on lots (hundreds) of egg cartons...they are amazing sound insulators and would look funky
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Postby Gandhi » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:15 pm

Scratch that idea, just read that they are only good for deadening sounds at a frequency of 9khz (or something like that)...basically someone talking...and they will burn fast and hard and the Forest will be a smouldering wreck which would not be good!

check out
http://www.soundproofing.org
for some info on, yes, you guessed it, Soundproofing
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Gandhi
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Postby Gandhi » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:19 pm

Maybe we could maker a giant one of these?...or not
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Postby sten » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:26 am

ahoy, so i propose building work on the wall will begin a week tomorrow with the assistance of james' dad (experienced pro builder) for finishing on saturday afternoon/night. Any objections? Also haven't got round to measuring the cave yet as i'm a fanny but if someone already has then i could do with that info. fresh.
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Postby beev » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:15 pm

The cave is 280 sq ft
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Postby ravanwin » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:41 pm

sten - do you need plaster for the ceiling? that's the main bit that is annoying re: sound. i am getting a quote for the beev's number ....
r
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Postby sten » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:12 pm

yeah, you need to cover every surface with insulation, creating a room in a room. sound is class at going through stuff so it has to be complete. Also there will need to be at least a couple of weeks for me and james to test all the equipment and go through the inevitable gremlins. How do people feel about that? i'll have a neoprene quote as soon as possible. Does any one know where to get cheap rockall from as that works nearly as well?
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Postby ravanwin » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:30 am

ok: re sound proofing.

(sten - i can give you kim's number and maybe it will just be easier to chat. he could probably get cheap rockwall too. cheap everything from the supplier)

Questions:

Is that 280 sq ft of plasterboard you want? Please confirm the following too.
Do you want 12 or 15 mm thick board?
Sq edge or tapered?
Do you want big or small sheets?
When do you want delivery?
Do you want screws too? how many?
It would be best to talk to the joiner concerned about all this. If there is no joiner involved or if the boys don't know the answer to all these questions then i would not let them do the work.

I do hope they are not going to use nails. i would specify you want them to use short black plasterboard screws, and don't let them use any plaster to cover the screw heads. That way it will be possible to dismantle it easily.

is 280 sq feet of board you want and that the boys are strong enough to carry the sheets and will get up early enough to accept delivery and not get me a bad reputation with the supplier by 'not having got out of their beds yet.

THERE YOU GO - Questions and Caveat.

Enjoy.
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Gandhi
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Postby Gandhi » Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:50 pm

don't forget that we have billions of screws and nails in the workshop so you may want to take a look and se if there are any you can use....most of them are brand new
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sten
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Postby sten » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:50 am

some excellent questions! i don't have the skills to do this by myself, i had envisaged that this would be passed on to someone with more experience once it got passed the estimates stage as all i really know is the theory to makes this happen. stuff like being there to receive a delivery etc is cool and you can trust me to be there but i wouldn't be comfortable being in charge of this, if there is someone who would like to take this on then i'll give all the help i can.
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beev
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Postby beev » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:11 am

280 sq ft is just the size of the floor (or the ceiling). More measuring will be required if the walls are to be done as well.
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Postby ravanwin » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:58 pm

hey -

having thoughts about this all:

It is very important that we clear building work with our landlord as any surprising changes could negatively affect our relationship.

Bill said he will talk to Nick and this is fine with me. We can say we take full responisbility for warrents etc. and hope he will be fine but we should not start untill we have explicit consent.

ok?

As for sound proofing.

It still seems like a far off dream. what are the practicalities?
r
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Postby sten » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:26 am

The practicalities are that it is definitly feasible. It requires money time and careful planning. The neoprene world is surprisingly resistent to giving out qoutes for abnormaly large quantities of the stuff, wood and screws are free and the plasterboard will be a bit pricy. If it is all within financial reach then the next stage is to find someone with some joinery experience to lay out the slats, line with neoprene, lay out the second layer of slats and then plaster board. Thats a weekend job for 6-8 people working hard when you include moving the stuff out of the cave. Thats the major work complete. Does this sound like an unachievable task?
as for the building work that sounds eminently reasonable!
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Postby ravanwin » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:12 pm

hey all - what's up with this. as i said before i think it's essential that this work passes through our landlord. bill was supposed to sort that out. i hope we can see some developments soon though --- maybe after new years?

r
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bill
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Postby bill » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:15 pm

i will speak weith the flav asap about the wall thing.

k.o
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Postby sten » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:39 pm

howdy all and a happy new year etc. So first things first things are looking exceedingly tidy finance wise, with as close to a confirmation as we can get to having all the funding we need with out actually having confitmation! secondly, we have decided to run the studio with a linux system. maybe we could get a time to meet a member of your tech support team to help us with that? Finally me and bill are meeting with flavin tomorrow so thats good also too. Anyone had any new good ideas?
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Postby martinmckenna » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:20 pm

I like the linux idea , although it could be difficult . not sure what the best version of linux for sound is.
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Postby sten » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:26 pm

apparently there are a couple of versions entirely devoted to recording and editing sound. i will p.m more info to you later. when i know more!
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Postby milk » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:47 am

http://ubuntustudio.org/ is apparently rather good. there's another good media distro, the name of which escapes me atm.
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