The dream can come true...

Front of House, garden etc.
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dan
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The dream can come true...

Postby dan » Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:19 pm

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Postby ravanwin » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:42 am

cool.
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dan
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Postby dan » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:33 pm

so let's buy it, right?
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Postby ravanwin » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:56 pm

ok. if there is no objection in 24 hours. dan gorman will make the purchase. great idea!
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Postby Gandhi » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:02 pm

makes sense!

As you are both slightly crazy, I am wondering whether you are serious or not. :? ?

You crazy monkeys!
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dan
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Postby dan » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:04 pm

23 hours 43 minutes and counting...
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Postby Gandhi » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:06 pm

I'll give you a grand for timeshare
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dan
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Postby dan » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:19 pm

i am being serious
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Postby Gandhi » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:27 pm

is Ryan?

Well, it looks amazing, could be genius, could be a big mistake. Spin the wheel of fate.
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Postby swithun » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:46 pm

Cool. It's within commuting distance of North Uist too. What's not to like?
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Postby Shannon » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:13 am

No - Leith before that!
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Postby bill » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:46 am

what! a huge house on an island where we will be able to make it through the apocalypse or a quarter of the size shop in leith? mmmmmmmm



whats it garden like. i want a big garden. is this actually cheap for remote places in scotland?
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dan
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Postby dan » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:29 pm

yes it's amazing. good garden, right on the sea. I can't believe you would prefer to be in a crap shop in leith!!! Next door is Rua Phoil organic farm and woofing centre...
So shall we make an offer?
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Postby Gandhi » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:30 pm

start low....£12.50
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Postby dan » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:31 pm

right man if no-one's going to be serious about living dreams then forget about it...
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Postby swithun » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:17 pm

I feel bad now for making fun of your dream, Dan. Sorry.

But at the same time, living dreams is a kind of prisoner dilemma. If everyone tries to do it, then no one can. Dreams are personal, rather than cooperative and communal. What I like about the Forest as it is now is that it is these things, rather than being a single vision shared by everyone.

I don't know what my dream would be, but I doubt it would be as viable as the Forest is. So luckily no one is living my dream. The fact that we all pull in different directions is what keeps us together. We are closer to living our dreams by not seeking to live them.
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Postby Gandhi » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:22 pm

Im sorry Dan. I feel bad.
:cry:
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Postby ravanwin » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:33 pm

for the record - i serious.

shall we have a serious meet?
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dan
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Postby dan » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:02 pm

no it's cool, it's fair enough to slate ideas if you not into them, i do it all the time! well i don't know if we have time for a serious meet though, date up end of jan. but it does feed into the bigger picture of possible moves etc. maybe we should coordinate a meet up for that? Like soon? Like this weekend?
d xx
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Postby Gandhi » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:14 pm

It looks amazing and if the chance and money is in place to go for it then it should definately be looked at seriously.
Until now I thought you guys actually were joking, but I've been proven wrong....its hard to grasp the tone of sentences when you just see them in writing.
You wanna buy it...to live there?, move the Forest there?, rent it out? all the above?
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Postby ravanwin » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:33 pm

i think if forest can help some people splinter and create a sister project that feeds into the original than we should do that. I do not think we should close the forest ever but we should think about our growth to keep the project interesting and ever changing. an island outpost would be a lovely and workable thing that can benifit all of us.

i think we could do something new in leith or in skye or in a ruin somewhere. obviously when i say we i don't mean all of us and the we means a meeting of new people too that can feed back into the original forest.

i think what dan and me and bloo have been looking for for sometime is another outpost somewhere one that preferably doesn't sell burritos.

My friend had a bookstore in philly. it was quite big and made good money. He also had a small bookshop out in cape cod where he'd send one or two staff members to for 6 - 8 months to run the shop but it was mostly quiet there and they could write or practice their art and it wasn't as hectic as philly.

I don't know how the forest can pull this off but it would be nice to think about.

anyway . 2 cents.
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Postby Gandhi » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:45 pm

That sounds cool. I like the idea. Would this be in Britain or would you think about elsewhere on the planet? If you bought land you could speak to Tim and his sister in New Zealand...don't they design eco buildings and stuff?
Anyway, I'm getting carried away. I definately agree that supporting splinter peeps if possible is a good thing and I definately feel the expanding the Forest (not franchising!) would be an excellent thing.
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Postby Shannon » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:58 pm

Actually, I don't know that I'm into Leith at all. I just really hate reading things like 'in 24 hours if no one objects' when the issue is a big one. Let us meet and discuss and then act...
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Postby Shannon » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:09 pm

Thinking about this more, a Scottish outpost makes far more sense than all of our other ideas about buying ruins in far off places. It means that more people who have been involved in Forest 1 would be able to visit, at the very least. It will be a great spot for the Forest roadshow. It looks like there is space for gardens and permaculture type stuff to happen. Owning will mean that we can do things like install solar water heaters and insulate properly. Next time we do a big visioning session we can have the retreat there. We could hire it out to other groups that need a place for a weekend, etc. The logistics of buying will be better. The fact that it is already a functioning hostel means there is a ready mortgage paying aspect in place. I really like the comparison to the Cape Cod bookshop. This kind of place could be run with far fewer people than Forest and it becomes an investment, as well.

The January 31st closing date is a big problem though. We have never sat down and done a proper business plan. What are the chances of getting a bank to agree to giving us money in enough time to make an offer? If we're going to be seriously looking at properties, we should really go have another meeting with Triodos.
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Postby dan » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:59 pm

yep it's unlikely to be solid by jan 31st. that's the sad truth. We could call them ad mention interest. At least to estate agents, they seem to deal in these kind of places to a level and could let us know when similar places come available. ooh this is a nice one though, it's right by the organic farm and the punk rock gaelic college... anyone know anyone who can give us 1/4 million in next 2 days?
D xx
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Postby swithun » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:07 am

Shannon has some good ideas on how such an adventure could pay for itself. This would have to be a basic requirement, even if the Forest is needed to help with the initial outlay and securing loans.

What I still find worrying is that this is presented as the next step or a fall back position. Bogging off to the middle of nowhere to, especially to be next door to other people who've bogged off to the middle of nowhere, seems to be like preaching to the converted.

To me, our strength is that we refuse to take the easy route. We challenge those who disagree with us, rather than going to where everyone agrees with us. We give hope to people who are unable to bog off to the middle of nowhere, rather than abandoning them. We should aim to bring back people who have bogged off to the middle of nowhere, not vice versa.

If we can gouge some tourists, educate the country folk in the ways of the Forest and have a place to chill, then great. As a means, it has advantages. But as an end, it is failure.
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Postby Gandhi » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:52 am

Completely agree with the Swith.

As an addition to the Forest great, as a replacement for the Forest...poo.

This is a place to escape the city, in the city.
However, Ryan has said that this is a different project than the Forest, and I think that's great and I completely support it, and I believe that Ryan, Dan and Blue would be great people to set it up, as we all know how hard they would work.

My only reservation is the money. If the Forest was to support it, how much money would be going into it?, and how much money would be left for the Forest to fall back on if or when we have to move venues? It would be disasteroous to put loads of money into a side project only for it to disadvantage the Forest in its time of need, which will be sooner or later. Obviously this is speculative as I don't really know much about your finances or about the building but I do know that it would be a mighty shame to have to close the Forest due to money, and I'm sure that many volunteers/Forest supporters would be upset if they thought that their hard work had been so others can go off and do their thing elsewhere in the country and they are left with nowt. These are just some points that should be considered and Im sure they have already been considered, but I think plans should be explained clearly to all the people in the Forest before they happen.

If this thing could happen, and the Forest can support it without endangering its survival in Edinburgh then fantastic, but if not I'm sure there would be quite a bit of protest.

I don't want to sound like i'm putting a downer on things because I really do think it would be great to expand in this way, and I know that RYan, Dan and Blue would be the best people to make it happen.
And in fact I really want it to happen, because then I've got somewhere to go on holiday. :D
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Postby dan » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:43 am

all fine good points.
the big thing we need to think about now though is that it to me seems like forest is not very healthy in the bristo place building, and this is prob even more apparent to random outsiders, landlords etc. So if it want's to be sustainable it lneeds to look at what it's doing well and how/where to do that. and i think rural does not = middle of nowhere, some could see it as more active and less preaching to the converted than a cafe of mostly students in the centre of town...?
D xxx
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Postby Gandhi » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:06 pm

However, rural also = less accessable.
Rural also = a lot less people around to use the place.
I go to the Forest when I've got some spare time which is not very often but I know its easy to get to, students go to the forest as its close to their uni and in town...and obviously coz its ace!
However moving to rural grounds is not a bad thing as long as people understand that the place would change completely from what it is now. A lot of custom comes from the fact that the venue is in town, I find it difficult to believe that most people would be willing to go out of town for a night at the same regularity that they visit now, which brings up the question of whether, with potentially a lot smaller customer base, could the rural venue make enough money to survive. To get enough money would you have to offer a place for people to stay/sleep? (obviously depending on how rural it is), would it turn into a crazy B&B?, what other ways of staying afloat would need to be used?. e.g. making products to sell, putting on events big enough to draw in big crowds willing to do some travelling every so often (all without causing outcry from your other rural neighbours). i grew up in the midlle of the countryside and people live their because of the peace of being in the middle of nowhere. I know that our neighbours would have protested if a crazy, loud venue opened up nearby....and remember that just because we know that "hippies" are nice, doesn't mean that other people have that view, in fact in a lot of cases its the opposite. don't underestimate Rural councils. They are often stricter about things like noise than their city colleagues.


I'm sorry I'm asking so many questions but there's a shitload of questions that need to be raised about something so massive happening.
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Postby Shannon » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:47 pm

Andy, you shouldn't apologise for asking this stuff. I think that before any decision like this was made, there would have to be a discussion with the wider Forest community - some open public meetings, etc.
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Postby beev » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:33 am

Andy makes some good points.

I 've been out to Rubha Phoil (next door) and it's worth pointing out a couple of things. Sandy (who owns the place) struggles money-wise and frequently gets taken advantage of by nutters who hang around her place because it is alternative and open/accessible. This is obviosly a problem we struggle with here in town, and I just wanted to point out that it is no less of a problem on Skye.

Also, Sandy has had problems when trying to develop her place because of planning objections by people who run a commercial hostel along the road from her. They always object to and block any proposals she has for making changes to the place.

Done right, this could be a cool project. But it's worth noting that all is not happy and groovy out in that area just because it is on a pretty island!

xxxxx
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Postby baloo » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:44 pm

we go to the moon.
the eaths fukced.
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Postby baloo » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:45 pm

but if theres a garden i wash your socks and make you tea and toast in bed.
prrrrrr.
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Postby emily » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:45 pm

Not that I have an opinion on this... but some of you might be interested in http://www.departmentofsafety.com/. On an island off the coast of Washington state. Started out as a hostel, now a venue and residency programme. One of my favourite places to be.
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Postby bill » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:39 am

the ideas of another things is great. i like the idea of a sister project. we have people i believe ready to make something amazing.perhaps this hostel isn't exactly the thing. for example we could buy a farm somewhere. tom adams was telling me about a farm 80 acres which had a chapel on it which went in the north of scotland for 100grand. so i think there are better premises available to forest. but the idea is good. or hundreds of acres of woodland for far less


xxx
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Postby ravanwin » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:30 pm

apparently you can build a house out of old tires and tin cans... buy land!
even cia nights has said it.
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Postby Gandhi » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:02 pm

I'm getting worried that everyones just gonna leave Edinburgh when this thing happens. The Forest in Edinburgh will suck. :cry:
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Postby nix » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:25 pm

we are a massive community!

with the right type of inclusion strategies, we can have tow, three.. sucessfull centers. No prob.

POSITIVE REALIZATION, Guys.
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Martin
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Postby Martin » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:29 pm

Could we maybe just wait until we have determined the future of the Edinburgh forest before spending money on offshoots? Really, in terms of the timescale on which we might actually get anywhere on a project like this, it's not that long till September.
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Gandhi
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Postby Gandhi » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:27 pm

agreed
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Shannon
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Postby Shannon » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:20 pm

Good point Martin. But it can't hurt to look at what's out there.
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Martin
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Postby Martin » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:05 pm

No, and I'm not opposed to the looking. It's the burst of "fuck it all, let's go" that seems to follow the looking that bothers me.
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Postby baloo » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:01 pm

fukc it all, let's go.
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baloo
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Postby baloo » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:03 pm

"this world is a bridge.
It connects the unknown to the unknown.

Build no house on this bridge."
Jesus, from the Koran.

(ie:fukc it, let's go.)
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Postby martinmckenna » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:31 pm

heres an interesting story on living some where different

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/sou ... 275312.stm

and a nice quote at the end

Mr James believes 40 home owners could build their own properties for that money.

And you would also be guaranteed a home which looked nothing like your neighbour's.
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bryony
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Postby bryony » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:41 pm

Oh my God! That's amazing, let's all do that!
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Postby milk » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:15 am

on a related note..

i've been thinking a bit about the concept of housing co-operatives recently. my interested was sparked 2/3 years ago when i ended up for the after-party of a club night at such a scheme in hulme, manchester called Homes for Change. i loved how the co-operative had been involved with the site from the planning phase and that it used concepts of progressive urbanism to make the space conducive to the social aspect of the community, such as multiple communal areas near to flat entries plus communal roof gardens, a fair sized area outside each flat for the occupant to customize or use in whatever way they see fit, an enclosed grass courtyard and play area overlooked by the communal areas, walk ways and the flats themselves to create an air of informal security towards anything that the space was being used for. the co-operative also has a flat organisational structure run by variety of working groups, plus the building incorporates many eco-friendly design ideas.

some links;

quick overview of the co-operative (pdf)

another summary, notes some eco-friendly details

a rather out-of-date site with some WG details on one of the subpages

another summary article, original site is down atm;

a related urbanism/design co-operative

anyway, i know of the Confederation of Co-operative Housing and e-mailed them a couple of weeks ago regarding any info on such things in scotland but haven't received a response yet. does anyone here know of any similar/related projects north of the border? i mean, would anyone here be interested in that kind of thing? Forest Heights? somewhere on the edge/suburbs of edinburgh, good transport links, space to grow our own veg, draw in visitors/cash with a café, pretty garden, theatre, recording studio, etc? thoughts?
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Postby baloo » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:25 pm

hey milk, check out radical routes.....(dot com?)...xxx
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Postby milk » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:06 am

found it at http://www.radicalroutes.org.uk, cheers for that. a related site of theirs; http://www.rootstock.org.uk/
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Postby milk » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:29 pm

http://theforest.org.uk/drupal5/edinbur ... e-thoughts

i know there are some around edinburgh who are really interested in this and will be looking to eventually make this into a bashed out proposal at some point.
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