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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:28 pm 
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Apparently Ecover isn't the way forward for a an eco cleaning solution. I've done a little work with eco-clean solutions and Dave who runs it recons that it's bad news cos it has some chemical called "Lanolin" or something which fucks with the hormones of marine life. I think it makes them lactate. Dave is a totally honest down to earth kind of bloke, the kind of guy that arranges peace things with Nelson Mandela when he's back in South Africa, so he's to be trusted. I reckon we should get Eco Clean solutions to supply our cleaning products. http://www.eco-cleansolutions.co.uk


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:16 pm 
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I doubt if lanolin (the oil from sheep wool) makes fish lactate. If it did though, we could bottle it and get a third frothing nozzle for the coffee machine for the pesky pescetarians.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:36 pm 
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Do you use Bio-D at this eco cleaning place? What's the word on how well it does the job? I used to use it at home in my kitchen, and thought it was ok, but apparently it ain't as effective at removing grease etc as Ecover is...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:30 pm 
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I do the order for the Ecover stuff and I only buy vegan cleaning products so they shouldn't have lanolin in them.

I have heard some other dodgy stuff about Ecover. Nothing too serious, or I'd remember; possibly about a nasty company they do business with. Anyway, I'd be up for trying Bio-D?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:47 am 
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Apparently Ecover lost their Vegan Society stamp for testing on water fleas and rabbit blood - read more. And they are Belgian!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:34 pm 
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I heard something about that. Alas, Green City still rates them with a 'v' for vegan.

I will order something different next time. See how the competition compares and all that.

We could buy a £15/year subscription to the ethical consumer 'buyers guides' and put all these dilemmas to rest!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:12 am 
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Don't sweat the Belgians
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:14 am 
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The only solution to dilemmas is ignorance. Knowledge just makes things worse. You'll end up madder than a fish with titties.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:29 am 
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What about all the bacteria (good and bad) that are murdered at the hands of these dastardly products?

Bacteria Rights!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:06 pm 
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I have murdered millions of house dust mites, purely in my own interests. Can I ever be a vegan?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:55 pm 
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Here is a great bit of Schopenhauer on this subject:

Schopenhauer wrote:
Take, for example, the mole, that unwearied worker. To dig with all its might with its enormous shovel claws is the occupation of its whole life; constant night surrounds it; its embryo eyes only make it avoid the light. It alone is truly an animal nocturnum; not cats, owls, and bats, who see by night. But what, now, does it attain by this life, full of trouble and devoid of pleasure ? Food and the begetting of its kind ; thus only the means of carrying on and beginning anew the same doleful course in new individuals. In such examples it becomes clear that there is no proportion between the cares and troubles of life and the results or gain of it. The consciousness of the world of perception gives a certain appearance of objective worth of existence to the life of those animals which can see, although in their case this consciousness is entirely subjective and limited to the influence of motives upon them. But the blind mole, with its perfect organisation and ceaseless activity, limited to the alternation of insect larvae and hunger, makes the disproportion of the means to the end apparent. In this respect the consideration of the animal world left to itself in lands uninhabited by men is also specially instructive. A beautiful picture of this, and of the suffering which nature prepares for herself without the interference of man, is given by Humboldt in his "Ansichten der Natur " (second edition, p. 30 et seq.) ; nor does he neglect to cast a glance (p. 44) at the analogous suffering of the human race, always and everywhere at variance with itself. Yet in the simple and easily surveyed life of the brutes the emptiness and vanity of the struggle of the whole phenomenon is more easily grasped. The variety of the organisations, the ingenuity of the means, whereby each is adapted to its element and its prey contrasts here distinctly with the want of any lasting final aim ; instead of which there presents itself only momentary comfort, fleeting pleasure conditioned by wants, much and long suffering, constant strife, bellum omnium, each one both a hunter and hunted, pressure, want, need, and anxiety, shrieking and howling ; and this goes on in secula seculorum, or till once again the crust of the planet breaks. Yunghalm relates that he saw in Java a plain far as the eye could reach entirely covered with skeletons, and took it for a battlefield; they were, however, merely the skeletons of large turtles, five feet long and three feet broad, and the same height, which come this way out of the sea in order to lay their eggs, and are then attacked by wild dogs (Canis rutilans), who with their united strength lay them on their backs, strip off their lower armour, that is, the small shell of the stomach, and so devour them alive. But often then a tiger pounces upon the dogs. Now all this misery repeats itself thousands and thousands of times, year out, year in. For this, then, these turtles are born. For whose guilt must they suffer this torment ? Where fore the whole scene of horror ? To this the only answer is : it is thus that the will to live objectifies itself.


Fuck on.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:53 am 
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Is it worth investing in the latest edition of the "Animal Free Shopper" guide (£4.99), which is produced by the Vegan Society?

It should have an up to date guide to products and producers to help navigate round such problems. It also has a far larger scope covering a vast array of products from kitchen to cosmetic so could be used when looking in to buying other products too.

We could have it as a reference book in the library or kept somewhere for volunteers to refer to if we are worried it may go 'missing'.

I have an old edition I could look out and bring in, but it is getting in for 10 years old now so would not cover the likes of Ecover losing it's vegan status.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:01 am 
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On the issues of a subscription to Ethical Consumer, I think this is a good idea.

Unfortunately my subscription has just come to a close, but I have found it useful. I have last year's magazines which I will try to look out and bring in, which we could use as reference. A lot of the reviews should still be current.

I think the point to note with this option though is not all types of products are covered (though the important ones are) and it needs to be taken in to consideration when the last reviews were carried out - although this is true of the 'Animal Free Shopper' book too.

Their reviews are excellent though with thorough breakdowns to show how ratings are achieved over a large number of green issues.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:26 pm 
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i am into a subscription or purchase of these referance materials.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:14 pm 
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Yes, I think we should do it. A few of us have been talking about a reference library in the meeting/action/workshop room, and I think these would be good to have.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:31 pm 
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It looks like my subscription to Organic Life and the Ecologist have carried over for another year.

After the Blender stuff is done I will look in to seeing if I can get the subscriptions transferred to Forest so that they are delivered to the cafe direct. If not, I will just bring them in as and when they arrive to go in the proposed workshop room reference library.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:14 pm 
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So, I have diverted my Organic Life subscription to come direct to Forest now. It will be addressed to me, but will have Organic Life written on the envelope so don't worry about opening it. This magazine is good for looking at current environmental issues and, in particular is good at looking at seasonal issues and stuff (including food - recipes with each issue, which is nice).

I think I may be able to resubscribe to Ethical Consumer at a reduced rate (as a precious subscriber) I have tried to call them to discuss, but no answer. Will try again after the Blender.

With respect to the Ecologist - I need to do some more checking.

These are all good reference materials so should really be kept for volunteer reference.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:08 pm 
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can we get nme and the economist too?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:34 pm 
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Shannon - looks like my ethical consumer website access is still active - I'll give you the login details next time I see you. Save the Forest paying for another subscription.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:39 pm 
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check the ingredients i am sure that ecover used to contain milk. that was a few years ago that i checked. but i have also heard that they are owed by some big cunts.....i don't know and can't find ought on it
x


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:40 pm 
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The Green City guy informed me while ordering last week that they lost their vegan society status. It is to do with testing on some sort of very wee water mite. So, I checked the price on Bio-D and it's slightly cheaper. We will try it for now.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:31 am 
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Ecover is solely owned by this guy
he looks pretty ok and nice to me.
He is also the non-executive chairman of Group 4, who seem pretty nice i think
http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=340
http://www.g4s.com/home/about/key_peopl ... rensen.htm

D xxx


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:50 am 
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Thanks for that. Should've looked it up myself. I think I will switch the rest of the cleaning supplies over to Bio-D. Yay?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:03 am 
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On the plus side, Group 4 are pretty good at letting prisoners go free. You might say that they got clean away.


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