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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:44 pm 
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Present; nix, eric, taskin, roman, ida, charles

Apologies from graeme and alex


Agenda:
DEFINITION OF ACTION GROUP
CRAFTY ROOM
WORKSHOPS
ACTION ROOM
BIKES
COMPOST/GARDEN



* Definition of Action Group

A brief recap of what the action group is about. Everything within the forest related to community action, workshops, garden, forest bikes, etc.



* Crafty Room

Nix; proposal to make the craft room fall under the remit of the action group.

Roman; suggestion to put more facilities (chairs, tables for starters)

Nix; proposes we should define the action room's usage first? gave a brief description of the history of the crafty room.

Roman; wondering what may happen when the forest might move

Nix; the new building could have a crafty room as well. also, at least still 6 weeks in bristo place, would be a shame not to use it.

Eric; would be interested in running a painting workshop

Charles; suggestion for booking sheet on the door.

Roman; suggestion that we make workshops use the room

Nix; we need to make the room usable. Fix the window, set-up computer.

Roman; proposal for getting tables/chairs moved in, maybe that can be moved/folded-up to the side for more space

We agree in general the crafty room should come under the action group's remit.

Taskin; what's it being used for currently?

Nix; sewing workshop, english workshop, two theatre groups.

Milk; worry that the room might be cluttered with a table.

Nix; 6 stackable chairs for the moment? look to get a foldable trestle table

Milk; do we have the budget for a table?

Nix; explains the Action WG £780/year. much not being used

Charles; [fake] natural light source?

Milk; natural light frequency should be possible

Eric; de-humidifier?

Nix; possible, yes. there was one previously

Eric; possibility of getting one second hand? he may have a source

Eric; what's in there currently?

Nix; describes the existing contents of the room (filing cabinets, etc). proposes a forest day of action. 1pm-6pm, sunday 20th.

Nix; how should we define the room?

Milk; how should the crafty room differentiate from the action room? essentially smaller and maybe slightly messier?

Nix; have the crafty room open for more artsy/crafty projects, similar booking system to the cave, key in the cafe. some people already have the key, but this shouldn't be a problem.



* Workshops

Eric; would like to start a painting workshop

Nix; describes how workshop proposals are dealt with.

Eric; for peeps with an interest in painting, anyone can come along with their own materials.

Nix; charging for materials in the craft room. traditionally everything is free at the forest. crafty room has possible exception in that people can choose to charge and donate something back to the forest/crafty room?

People wonder about how free things should be,

Carlos; interested in taking up the role of workshop co-ordinator. suggestions for guidelines for people running workshop. also for suggestions for promotion.

Ida; board just for workshop date/times? w/ a description of each.

Milk; have set rules for saying when we can reassess whether an unreliable workshop leader can continue

Nix; you must show up or workshops and advertise, else the workshop co-ordinator has the right to cancel the class. if reasons are given for not being there then that's ok, but else..

Nix; carlos for workshop co-ordinator?

All; agree, woo

Nix; advises carlos on a few of the responsibilities. workshop runners have £5 for flyers/poster copying. advises eric to register workshop idea with carlos.

Charles; interested in running a 4 week workshop, sharing a healing code of exchange, skill sharing for alternative health therapies.

Nix; advises to make it clear it's an affinity group rather than a service.



* Action Room

Nix; definition of the action room? keeping it tidy - deep clean day movements?

Nix; action room co-ordinator anyone?

Eric; suggestion to keep it as a group for the moment?

Nix; ok, but will have to be dealt with at some point...



* Bikes

Nix; graham wants to step down as co-ordinator. nix will take this up reluctantly for a month. advises there are no bikes available atm. is not too happy about the face that EVS people get bikes for free.

Is advised that this is a legal obligation.

Nix; ok with this, still unhappy it wasn't communicated to him earlier. also wants to note that, even though the outcome is ok, decisions for the action group should be made at the action group meeting, not at the EVS meeting.

Nix sorts out bike allocation with the EVS people present.

Nix; there's a possibility of getting new bikes, to follow up in the future


* Compost & garden

Nix; blue has left the forest for the time being and the garden needs looking after. explains the composting system. unhappy that cafe & events took it upon themselves to cancel composting when it's not in their remit. wants to make it work. advertising for interested parties? responsible person for the garden?




*** Action points;

Fix lighting and window in crafty room - Charles'll look into the lighting. Nix'll look at the window.
Booking sheet for crafty room - Carlos?
Work on promotion for crafty room - Roman.
E-mail address recipient - Nix, Roman.
Crafty co-ordinator - Nix.
Deep clean day/set-up computer? - Sunday 20th, 1-6pm. Nix to promote this.
How to register crafty room users? - Nix.
Advertise for garden person? - Nix will ask, Ida will create a poster/flyer.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:20 pm 
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hey yo i betcha we can get a foldy trestle table from EUS maybe one of the ones we use for the zine fair? D x

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:59 pm 
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Quote:
Nix; graham wants to step down as co-ordinator. nix will take this up reluctantly for a month. advises there are no bikes available atm. is not too happy about the face that EVS people get bikes for free.

Is advised that this is a legal obligation.


Not sure what this 'legal obligation' is...can someone explain???

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:37 am 
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Quote:
i betcha we can get a foldy trestle table from EUS maybe one of the ones we use for the zine fair?


that would be fantastic. will these be free for the forest to use after the fair?

Quote:
Not sure what this 'legal obligation' is...can someone explain???


this was mentioned by a couple of the EVS peoples there, something to do with a compromise on transport (unless that's just crossed wires)? i know at least roman would know what this referred to, he was one who mentioned it (iirc).

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:28 am 
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I don't know about the "obligation" part. Either way, I think it is a good thing to do.

But we need to do this properly. Some the the EVS don't have lights yet, which is very highly dangerous. not to mention lack of helmets. If the Forest says it will be doing this, It needs to get it sorted now and properly, not in the usual lazy way. One EVS has already had a (thankfully) small accident. Please, no more.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:28 pm 
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james said:
Quote:
But we need to do this properly. Some the the EVS don't have lights yet, which is very highly dangerous. not to mention lack of helmets. If the Forest says it will be doing this, It needs to get it sorted now and properly, not in the usual lazy way. One EVS has already had a (thankfully) small accident. Please, no more.


You have just volunteered yourself to do this. Great.

We all appreciate your use of the word lazy.
Perhaps then you will show us all how it is to be done.

The "obligation" thing is very important.
Because someone said it, and that means something.

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Last edited by Gaz on Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:22 pm 
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the phrase "legal obligation" means nothing special, it was just said that under EVS program host organization has to provide volunteers by local transportation, this is not legal obligation of course, it's not precscibed by UK or EU law :lol:
in this case the transport for EVS is bike.

http://www.fve.hu/evs/documents/jogokes ... 011428.pdf

page 4th

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:36 pm 
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In answer to these questions:

Quote:
under EVS program host organization has to provide volunteers by local transportation,


No. Read this carefully.

"In case the volunteer has transport expenses for attending her/his project activities, such costs are to be covered by the host organisation and will be given to the volunteer, monthly or weekly, in addition to the allowance."

Expenses to get to the forest are zero. You can walk.

Quote:
in this case the transport for EVS is bike.


No. In this case the transport for EVS is walk.

As stated from the activity agreement which you signed:
"The flat will be located within walking distance of the place of work."

Continues:
"In addition to this a bicycle will be available for use"

We offer you guys a bike cos we want you to have the opportunity to see more of Edinburgh and enjoy your life here. It is not necessarily for work.

We have already offered you 2 bikes, Roman, and considering we have no obligation to do even that, I think that is pretty generous and deserves appreciation.

Quote:
the phrase "legal obligation" means nothing special


Please stop using it then.

This is the second time you have used it - and used it wrongly.

In any case it is not in the spirit of what we are trying to do here at the forest.

Finally, yes the host organisation has responsibilities, and I can say we have tried very hard to meet these.

Also - the volunteer has responsibilities too.

If you wish, we can talk about this more next time we meet.

Thanks.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:36 am 
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FYI - I called mark at the bike station 2 x. I spoke with a person who thought that they may be able to help us out with extra bikes at, around £20 per bike.

If the EVS guys are so keen to get bikes than they can do the legwork to sort this out. You want to speak to Mark at the Bike Station. Tell them you are from the Forest and you wondered if there was anything we could exchange for a few cheaper rate bikes. We've worked with them in the past and, if they can help, they will.

As for Helmets and Lights. I say that is a personal responsibility based on the comfort level of the riders. If someone gives you a bike you don't say - where's my helmet? You say: Cool. Thanks!

As for legal obligations: I second Gareth - cut the shit. Further, there are plenty of bikes available --- I believe they should be shared.

Ride on!,
Ryan

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:36 am 
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ps: found a bike. it is silver. and up in the balconys. It could use some work but, mostly, it seems pretty good.
r

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:44 pm 
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there is a "day of Action" on Sunday and with the help of some random volunteer I have not met yet, we are sorting out all the forest bikes, Nuria has said she will take on the role of "forest bikes coordinator" .. she will be trained in all the admin she needs to do. there are enough bikes for all EVS and a couple of spares.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:48 pm 
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ah, spares do exist. could i apply for a bike then please?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:09 pm 
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Let's not forget that bikes were not ever meant to be permanent loans.

In regards to compost: I started it up again more than two years ago after a long period of dormancy (due to substantial health and safety issues). No working group system existed. The committee only agreed on the basis that I would be personally responsible and part of that responsibility is to stop composting during the hot summer months when flies are a problem. That is what I have done. Same thing happened last year. Anyone who wants to know more or have take it on now that I am leaving is welcome to come speak to me or pm me.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:11 am 
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ravanwin wrote:
ps: found a bike. it is silver. and up in the balconys. It could use some work but, mostly, it seems pretty good.
r


that's mine,it needs pedals change (Nix game me new pedals) and lights.
I think will not be problem if I buy lights at Bike Station and later to be reimbursed.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:18 am 
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are we reimbursing for lights?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:12 pm 
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ravanwin wrote:
are we reimbursing for lights?


yes, Alex reimbursed and in bike station they changed pedals for free :D , but next day Nix confiscate my bike and gave to another person without warning before, because he found it was placed not on appropriate place.
:P

I didn't know that there is Bike Police in the Forest :?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:35 pm 
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what are the 'appropriate' places? why do people never write important things like this down?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:48 am 
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Because it should be pretty obvious that you shouldn't lock your bike inside, in a fire exit?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:37 pm 
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erk, fair enough. just to check, that kind of health & safety issue covered in current volly/evs training yes?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:52 am 
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All volunteers are shown fire extinguishers, alarms and fire exits on their first shift in the kitchen. They are told that fire exits should be kept clear at all times.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:50 am 
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we should not be buying lights, in my opinion. that should be the responsibility of the bike user, not the lenders.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:09 pm 
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disagree very strongly
maybe EVS is a different case
but for bike hire to people we must do lights
it is completely unsafe to cycle at night without lights (as well as illegal - one of the times the law is there for a damn good reason)
if we hire a bike to someone for a couple of days its ridiculous to make them buy lights. what a waste of lights, after they are used what will happen to them?
I would be shocked if any bike shop hired you a bike then told you to get your own lights.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Maybe increase the deposit a bit to cover the inevitable loss of lights.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:13 pm 
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or just leave the deposit as it is, if they don't bring the lights (or replacements they buy themselves) back they lose the deposit? just the same as if they don't bring any other part of the bike back.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:17 pm 
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eh?

we arent hiring bikes are we? we are lending bikes on a 'as seen, and self inspected' basis, certainly we offer no guaruntee on the safety of the bikes, or there road-worthyness. etc. i imagine our insurance does not cover this etc.. and we are certainly in no position to guaruntee these things...

for sure we dont want any accidents or anything, but bikes has repeatedly proven in the past to be a bottomless waste of time and money if we want it to be...

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:53 pm 
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yes - don't be silly james. I've hired numerous bikes around the world and never been given lights with them.

if they want lights they can arrange them. Further, there is never a good reason for these laws. Maybe you need a nanny but I don't.

Also p it is not completely unsafe to cycle at night with no lights. That is a damned lie. It is slightly more unsafe but you can get run over by a lorry in broad day-light wearing a high-viz vest.

Such a waste of money.

I can't believe there is so much "I love the law" chat on this bb.

We should have changed the name of The Forest to The Police Cafe 3 years ago.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:58 am 
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Quote:
it is not completely unsafe to cycle at night with no lights. That is a damned lie. It is slightly more unsafe


i do not trust drivers at the best of times, but their ability to see me cycling without lights in the dark, especially with my usual get up, given the places i might cycle, and how dark it gets at the end/start of the year, i would say there's a high possibility for an instance where having lights to give a direct and immediate signal to any drivers looking to pull out would clear up any hesitation or confusion on their part and leave me not in the rapidly reducing path of some ~ 1 tonne piece of heavy machinery.

Quote:
but you can get run over by a lorry in broad day-light wearing a high-viz vest.


different scenario, not as much the cycler can do there to up their visibility compared to having lights on a dark scottish night.

"Cross reported that this motorist-overtaking category was the only crash type in his study where nighttime crashes out-numbered daytime ones. Nighttime crashes made up 71 percent of Type 13 ["motorist overtaking, bicyclist unseen"] fatalities, but only 30 percent of all fatal collisions. Also, 65 percent of non-fatal Type 13 problems were in darkness. In contrast, only 10 percent of non-fatal collisions of all types fell between dusk and dawn (p. 36). In more than 90 percent of the nighttime Type 13 crashes, the cyclists had no lights (Williams, 1993a)." [1]


i'd argue that the forest should care enough to want its people to have less chance of coming to harm, especially when using a forest service.

Quote:
but bikes has repeatedly proven in the past to be a bottomless waste of time and money if we want it to be...


money in relation to bike lights? how much do lights cost us? more or less than the deposit? where do the bikes come from? how often have people lost lights in the past? what does the budget say bike money is to be spent on? does this tally with the reality of bike expenditure?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:45 am 
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ravanwin wrote:
We should have changed the name of The Forest to The Police Cafe 3 years ago.


You could get in touch with someone from the Law and Order Centre and we can have a collar feeling workshop.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:59 pm 
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i feel safer without lights.

if they can't see you, its harder for them to hit you.

go to a rifle range, turn the lights out and try and hit the target.

i made serious points above, which have not been responded to.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:28 pm 
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it seems a bit crap that if we don't provide lights then our "bike service" is deemed rubbish- it's great that we have the bikes to provide in the first place.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:09 am 
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chris wrote:
we arent hiring bikes are we? we are lending bikes on a 'as seen, and self inspected' basis, certainly we offer no guaruntee on the safety of the bikes, or there road-worthyness. etc. i imagine our insurance does not cover this etc.. and we are certainly in no position to guaruntee these things...

for sure we dont want any accidents or anything, but bikes has repeatedly proven in the past to be a bottomless waste of time and money if we want it to be...


I'm happy to have a discussion (after August) about whether we should be doing bikes and on what basis we should be doing them, but I still feel that if we do them we should have some sets of lights people can use if they want.

They don't even cost much.
http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/ebwPNLq ... 152c003244


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