moving the freeshop

ravanwin · **Posted:** Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:00 pm

it would be a mess!

bryony · **Posted:** Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:19 am

I think we should definitely move the Free Shop to the shop shop. I suggested it ages ago but everybody thought it was a bad idea.

At present the Free Shop is left largely unattended, left to smelly homeless people (I only object to to noisy ones who stink of booze) and people who don't know what coat hangers are for. If it moved to the shop there would always be a responsible volunteer keeping an eye on it, ensuring tidiness and top quality free stuff. No more mouldy pants! I think it would be a great way to get the free shop working really well for the first time ever and give the shop staff something to do. Let's face it, even taking into account a ten fold increase in business this shop is never going to be filled with customers all day long. Plenty of time for someone to make the Free Shop look nice.

This could be done without detriment to the shop. The shop seems to have more stock than display space anyway so it will need rearranging in order to fully utilise the space. I also think having the free shop ther will encourage people to buy stuff, it will add a drawing factor, it's actually an amazing marketing technique. The first rule of retail is attract customers into your shop, then let the quality of it's merchandise and the charm of the sales person do the rest. I was totally never a sales person :oops:

These are my thoughts, soory but I won't be able to attend the meeting tonight.

bryony · **Posted:** Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:22 am

Also, the state of the Red Room saddens me every time I walk in the door. It used to be warm, welcoming and beautiful. Now it looks horrendous o matter how many ways we've tried to arrange it. The Free shop needs to move, save the Red Room!

neil · **Joined:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:50 pm **Posts:** 944

so what will be the next step in this debate?

i'll hazard a guess: it will be discussed at a shop meeting. the situation will be summarized for those not familiar with the topic. the same points mentioned above will be repeated. those in favor will argue in favor. those against will argue against. no agreement will be reached. the decision will be put off until after another meeting or bb discussion. nothing will change. maybe - eventually - the need for change will be accepted by all. but by that time the original drive behind the idea will be lost, and it will be followed through in a half baked fashion.

am i being overly cynical? hopefully.

i think it's worth saying to people who want to argue against things that the forest is meant to be about change and experimentation. people should be able to have ideas and then go ahead and follow through with them. especially if the majority of people agree with the idea.

in the kind of system that we operate, it is very hard to get anything done when every idea has somebody, or some small group of people who are against it. people need to recognize that change is necessary, and that if a majority of people are in favor of something then the thing should probably be given a chance.

by all means, state your view and argue your point. but if the majority still want to go in a particular direction, i think it is unkind to stand in their way.

ravanwin · **Posted:** Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:13 pm

at the risk of sounding like a dick - this is one for the FWG to decide and not for the shop or sub-working groups. there is a conflict between shop / free shop / front of house and therefore is within forest working group jurisdiction. i really don't want to attend a shop meeting to just argue this one point. it seems a waste of everyones time.

any other ideas on how to play this out.

swithun · **Joined:** Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:24 am **Posts:** 2449

If the shop people have a meeting, then this is what they should talk about. Or have a FWG meeting and decide what the shop people can talk about. But I don't think you can pick the meeting to discuss this at, just so you can be sure of having enough people to agree with you.

I can see that the problem with the free shop is that it isn't looked after enough. And this is because no one has time. And there are people with some free time in the real shop. And they could look after the free shop.

But if the people who work in the real shop are unhappy about being inundated with sausage men and people being confused about what is free and what isn't, then they should have a say in what they should be doing. Shop people - you need to go to meetings, otherwise someone else will decide what is best for you!

James · **Posted:** Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:42 am

So I argued this point repeatedly at the shop meeting to the point I pissed people of for being a bore
I was the only one who turned up to do so
They weren't in favour.

However, they are getting (almost) free space from the forest and really, they are the forest, not a separate project.
given the conflict between shop/c&e/foh on this issue, taking it to a FWG meeting and saying the shop must accept that decision seems fair
almost all of the people in the shop are entitled to come to the FWG meeting and argue their point.

Shannon · **Posted:** Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:36 am

People need to understand what it means to block. I hear Neal's point and agree that it is difficult to get change or get things done if the people using consensus don't actually understand it. You don't block just because you don't like an idea. First you try and come up with creative proposals that can encompass most or all of people's concerns. Even if this doesn't work, you don't block a decision just because it isn't your preferred option. If your reservations are serious you can stand aside and say that you're fine with it to go ahead but don't personally want to be involved. A block should only be used if you think the decision is so wrong and so bad that it will compromise the fundamental aims of the organisation or the project.

Maybe in this case there could be a trial of the idea with a review in a month's time? If the concerns turn out to be problematic and true, then the freeshop can always go back to where it was, or somewhere else altogether.

But we should also keep in mind that the people who will be responsible for implementing this decision must be involved and must feel a part of it.

ravanwin · **Posted:** Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:53 am

hmmm --- so an impasse.

"I think not moving the free shop will compromise the fundamental aims of the organisation or the project."

No, I guess I don't. Still, this is more than a shop decision and yet kicking it up to FWG doesn't seem fair in some people's minds.

Newington Bandit · **Joined:** Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:32 pm **Posts:** 102

A lot of tydying the free shop is really binning/recycling all the crap. It doesn't take that long if we keep on top of things. Even if people don't have the time to do a full clean up just removing some broken/useless crap and binning it whenever you pass the free shop on your way to the cafe takes literally 30 seconds. We've got to be ruthless there. When I tydied the free shop the last couple of weeks, I got rid of some stuff that maybe one day someone would have picked up. But if it takes 6 months for something in the free shop to go, then I feel it's not worth the mess. All the underwear goes as far as I'm concerned. Even the clean one.
Also, a lot of the mess is due to people dropping leaflets/posters on the red shelf. Even if they do a clean neat stack of them, they're scattered all over the floor within a few hours. The free shop is not for advertising stuff, even good interesting stuff. We've got boards for that.
By the way where did our enveloppe for used batteries go? People who got used to dropping them in are now ditching their batteries in the free shop. that doesn't help.

ravanwin · **Posted:** Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:49 am

save the underwear.

i'm working on an art project about men and man issues which i want to use the underwear for.

thanks.

michaelbowdidge · **Posted:** Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:31 am

Be careful - some bright spark will probably tell you that your art is a load of pants (*sigh*)...

That was a great feed - ever thought about forming a comedy double act :wink:

swithun · **Joined:** Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:24 am **Posts:** 2449

Ah yes, the Mangina Monologues.

Gandhi · **Posted:** Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:43 am

Attachment:

Old_Gregg.jpg

Poor Old Gregg's got a mangina...don't be playing your love games with him!!

you want some Baileys?

ravanwin · **Posted:** Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:16 pm

so sweet and creamy.

jamiec · **Joined:** Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:54 pm **Posts:** 37

the more i think about it i just want the free shop gone.

there just ain't a suitable place for it. right now it not only cause a mess, i also dislike it because it creates a bottleneck in and out of the cafe. Removing could create better flow between the spaces.

Perhaps we could use the freed space for the noticeboards (which currently also create obstructions and reduce flow) and turn this area into a starting point for new forest users. It might encourage people to use the spaces we offer more often if the information was better and more easily presented. Currently it is a little frenetic with posters hanging everywhere, and the only folk who know what we can offer are moderately to heavily involved.

We could reincarnate the freeshop in the shop maybe in the future in a much smaller form.

xxx J

rosie · **Joined:** Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:11 pm **Posts:** 15

the red / gold room used to be a cosy feast for the desiring eyes. now, it really makes me want to wash after i've walked through it.

i love the free shop - but in my view its time in the red room is through. it's great that is has gotten so popular but unfortunately it and it's clientèle can be a stain on the joy of the room.

if it was moved to the shop, it could have some kind of vintage thing going on - mannequins with ladies undies nicely arranged, coupled with a peacock headdress etc. either way it needs to down size - alot of stuff that arrives and is displayed to greet customers at the moment could be used as props for an apocalyptic abandoned village film set (a plastic hand, a broken novelty pen, books with only one remaining page). lets give it a new lease of life.

lets make the front room a boudoir again.

xxx

Shannon · **Posted:** Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:34 pm

Quote:

"I think not moving the free shop will compromise the fundamental aims of the organisation or the project."

No, I guess I don't. Still, this is more than a shop decision and yet kicking it up to FWG doesn't seem fair in some people's minds.

you aren't the only person who needs to go over it like that in your mind. all parties need to be thinking this way for it to work at it's best. also, i think 'change is the opposite of death' is pretty fundamental to the organisation...

neil · **Joined:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:50 pm **Posts:** 944

rosie wrote:

if it was moved to the shop, it could have some kind of vintage thing going on - mannequins with ladies undies nicely arranged, coupled with a peacock headdress etc. either way it needs to down size - alot of stuff that arrives and is displayed to greet customers at the moment could be used as props for an apocalyptic abandoned village film set (a plastic hand, a broken novelty pen, books with only one remaining page). lets give it a new lease of life.

so true! the free shop in its current form is little different to a pile of junk on leith walk. we think we're being cool and original by having such a thing, but really it's little more than a glorified scrap heap.

with proper care and constant supervision it could be more like some amazing vintage/retro/junk shop that has the incredible bonus of being the polar opposite of expensive - which most of these shops are.

jamiec · **Joined:** Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:54 pm **Posts:** 37

Gandhi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:53 am

so whats the plan? So many posts going back and forth I'm kind of confused about the overall consensus...and I'm too lazy to read through it all again. :?:

as the working group and shop come to a decision?

michaelbowdidge · **Posted:** Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:48 pm

neil wrote:

the free shop in its current form is little different to a pile of junk on leith walk.

Actually you get better tat on Leith Walk than you do in the free shop...

Susana · **Joined:** Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:15 am **Posts:** 203

I totally agree with making the front room an inviting place. But as Cyrille and other people say putting the free shop in the main shop could potentially be disastrous. I'll tell you a little (tragicomic) tale:

Last year I did some volunteer work in this charity shop. At some point this guy and his girl friend lifted an stereo and I only realized when they were already out looking at me through the window defyintly (if such word exists...). It took me time to decide that yes that loud pink box they were carrying under his arm was the one sitting in a corner of the shop.... Anyhow, i think the guy knows me and still looks at me in the street with that defying look or makes comments, etc... I do find it a bit intimidating, I must say, but never mind... Well, here is the story: he used to have this rather hard/druggy look about him (a lot of leather,etc...) but not any more; thanks to the free shop (I think) he now looks 'respectable' and groomed

) and the other day I saw him coming into the cafe carrying this satchel that struck to me as sooo familiar and I realized that I had put it in the free shop myself together with other items that my flatmate collected from the numerous meetings he has to attend abroad.... I thought 'look at him, how cunning'. Well, he spent two minutes looking around for something to lift (I think) and left through the back door... going upstairs, downstairs, to the shop??? I know he is dead crafty and cunning since at the shop they would buy some cheap thing so to look like proper customers but then steal what had a heavy price tag... He really made me laugh when i saw him with that bag... so scheming! He is the type of picaresque character Velazquez would have loved to paint!! (He should have gone for something more modest, though, something like a university conference or so, not one of a meeting of the EU at the directive level!!! ;>> )

And yes, it is very funny but I tell you he is the type that if the free shop is moved into the 'shop' he will get out of it much more than the 'free' items... And if you ever worked in a shop, specially on your own, you know it is much too easy for people to lift things if that is their intention... they just need to wait for a moment when the shop is a bit busier or they bring along someone that will ask you something and distract your attention....

So, what is the solution? Maybe bring the library to the front room and use that space for the free shop?. And to separate it a bit from the rest of the cafe we could hang strips of material like the plastic of the new lamps... maybe?. Magda (Snip and Sip) told me this plastic is very expensive but she gets it for work so we could use this great opportunity if she can manage to get hold of more??

I used to think that if the books went to the front room they would disappear more quickly but now I think that it might not make much difference. I left many of my books with a sticker of 'on loan by a friend of the forest..... and some apocaliptic threat if they dared to take it away' but it made no difference. Most of them they did disappear. I saw some missing for some time and reappearing later, which is fine by me but most never came back and now I suspect that it may not be necessarily out of disrespect/responsability/etc but rather active stealing for they can make some money in a flea market... :lol:

About the main shop, yes ideally I think it should open directly onto the street and I envisage it with a luminous sign on the front. Again I was talking to Magda about possibilities of how it could be made. I said that I would love to see the name of the shop made of one running neon tube as if it was handwritten, like the sentence on the Bank Hotel in the Bridges 'Let's talk about Art... maybe' (nowadays is never lit but the colour is blue and it used to look fantastic!), or, since that would be probably prohibitively expensive, we could make the word out with little lights. And Magda said that this last option is very feasible (Magda is studying theatre lightning so she knows!). If no door can be put in the front of the shop I think that then it would help if the current sign is removed because that is precisely at eye level for the passer by to see what is inside. I know there are some broken glasses but in any case if we want to let people see what is inside all the outer glass panes have to be removed for they are not transparent, anyhow (they are of that gritty type to stop visibility)

Anyhow those are a few ideas....

Susana · **Joined:** Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:15 am **Posts:** 203

I saw today the new front of the shop with the bags hanging and the lights. Great!!!! What an improvement. Maybe we could manage to have also a book and a cd showing so that the representation is wider and fairer.....

Susana · **Joined:** Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:15 am **Posts:** 203

Had a wee idea:

Apparently we have tons of that plastic material used for the new lamps in the cafe. WHat about creating a (new) curtain out of it making sure that it fills the whole front. Maybe we don't even have to cut it into thinner strips, just hang about 3 of them in their normal width and in a way that cannot be moved so easily to the sides,etc. I think that it would look extra cool and would create a barrier/separation while at the same time allowing to see a bit of what is inside (we would leave the wooden 'Free Shop' sign outside the plastic of course so that people know that it is a free shop....)

If you like the idea I can do it.
In any case there is no harm by trying...???? :shock:

ravanwin · **Posted:** Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:01 pm

i still think it should move. but other options can be tried i guess.
r

simone · **Joined:** Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:47 am **Posts:** 896

was the curtain idea not tried with the red material that is up now?i'm not sure that a curtain is the answer as stuff always seems to escape it......left open etc. i think the way forward is just having a little tidy every time you are there.
i guess you could try it though

nix · **Joined:** Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:49 am **Posts:** 1231

OK..

so there is a shop meeting:

Thursday 6th Nov, 4pm . ... in the shop ... . is that OK with every one?

We all have good ideas and the shop needs us to work some stuff out.

cool.

emi · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:39 pm

We have to proposals for moving the free shop that we discussed at the shop meeting

shop proposal no 1: have a small free shop next to the shop that will be looked after the shop staff possibly in a lockable cupboard
shop proposal no 2: swap shop in the shop with stickers on every item to avoid confusion

what do you guys think about them?

ravanwin · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:35 pm

i like either idea really very much.

Nerea · **Joined:** Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:47 pm **Posts:** 14

I prefer proposal 1, but it can be a problem about the fire exit... proposal 2 can be a messy in my opinion, but, I think we can try...why not???

ravanwin · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:07 pm

oh - yes, NOT outside the shop - didn't realise you meant outside the shop. i think that might be a disaster?
r

Susana · **Joined:** Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:15 am **Posts:** 203

Re. the front room: Can I offer myself to nake big cushions for the window area? I would need someone else for advice on what type of material/ colour,etc..., where to get the material (old curtains is a tempting idea but usually they are not washable... so bad idea, apparently).

But maybe you want to wait till the free shop is relocated and perhaps a new style given to the whole front room...?

ravanwin · **Posted:** Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:14 am

coushins could be lovely.

simone · **Joined:** Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:47 am **Posts:** 896

think shop in corridor will be nightmare
option in shop better idea as easier to control
not to sure about swap shop idea
sometimes bringing it bits and taking away bits do not happen at the same time, would feel traumatised of missing great new top because i had no swap item or had brought it in a few days before!hmmmm

nix · **Joined:** Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:49 am **Posts:** 1231

there was a proposal No.3 and No.4

3. keep the freeshop where it is, but much reduced in size and tidied every day by shop staff.

4. move the freeshop to the corner of the main room, by the library, but much reduced in size and tidied every day by shop staff.

I'm up for No. 4.

also.... it was mentioned in the shop meet, I am willing to donate some space in my studio to storage for the freeshop, I have a big metal cabinet ..

we need a "freeshop coordinator" who is that? EVS?

simone · **Joined:** Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:47 am **Posts:** 896

i think 4 is a good idea, did mention it before but guessed no one else agreed at time...think it could be easier to control but would probably just spill over and get in way of people in cafe and tables etc
i thought ida was free shop coordinator, may have made that up in wishful thinking!!
i think that the free shop has been much tidier recently, maybe because people better at tidying it more regularly
i would love the free shop to stay where it is, did not realise this was still an option, but i know a lot of people really want it to move.
nix, considering balcony tidiness difficulties think you having an overspill cupboard is not a good idea...don;t take it personally!

nix · **Joined:** Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:49 am **Posts:** 1231

for the freeshop to work well and bee good, the freeshop coordinator needs to have a place to put overspill (stuff thats too good to throw out, but doesn't fit in the freeshop at the time) .. I cant think of another cupboard. I want the freeshop to be good, so I am offering my valuable cupboard space.

Ida · **Joined:** Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:36 pm **Posts:** 83

i would like the free shop to stay where it is. but i wouldnt fight for that alone. i tried to keep the free shop as clean as possible in the last time but cant do it every day. we would need a system for that. also if it was really staying i would make a better system, good labels etc. but just if it was for sure, i dont want to waiste my time. i think shop in the library corner would be horrible-too messy even if it was clean. why not in the corridor in front of the shop? would make this entry more attractive and in sight of the shop people so they see people being messy and shout at them-would be great:)!
is it a problem with the fire exit?

ravanwin · **Posted:** Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:04 am

fire exit

Susana · **Joined:** Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:15 am **Posts:** 203

Maybe if we canot agree on where to put it we may have to do without it, as sad as that would be.... but it is true that the entrance to the forest feels like some extension of the homeless place next door (no offence, but you knopw what I mean...). Maybe we just 'suspend it' at least till we have a great ureka idea..
I have in the past tried to tidy it up and it took me half an hour and still it wasn't all that perfect,... . Also it just take two people afterwards fiddling a bit and is back to what it was.

About the cushions, perhaps duvet covers could be a cheap option for the material. I was also told by the charity Bethany that they have a section down in Leith, called Home Maker that I must go and check out. They say they do full house clearances so there may be many things to be found. We'll see.

I still think also that if the free shop is moved to some corner it should be sorrounded by some type of curtains, be it next to the library, be it at the shop... otherwise it would be truly a mess and an eyesore. (I know, me and the curtains...). By the way my idea of using the 'ceiling lamps' material may be not so good: I touched it and I think it that it is far too fragile.

Let's keep thinking.

ravanwin · **Posted:** Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:06 am

option 2! it is a good compromise.

Gandhi · **Posted:** Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:50 am

yeah option 2 seems the best option at the moment. therefore people can keep an eye on what people are putting in it too. if the items are too big or are just junk then shop peeps can influence them to use Freecycle as an alternative.

Love the cushion idea, a good step towards making the front room cosier. i like, is nice.

Susana · **Joined:** Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:15 am **Posts:** 203

If it is option 2 the stickers system should be such that it is not just easy to detach one and stick it to whatever they want to buy....

James · **Posted:** Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:00 pm

not into the library corner.

Come to think of it, option1 is right out. I was thinking it could be kept thin against the wall but then remembering that last time I talked to a fire guy they don't like anything being in that hallway.

option 2 - but i think we have to reply on staff knowing the stock more than stickers.

Sussanna, talk to Cyrielle, she may want to help you with cushions ... but lets wait 2 secs - if we do move the free shop lets plan a whole redesign of the red room in one go, with anyone who wants contributing ...

The shop has looked much better recently but I would still be in favour of a move.

James · **Posted:** Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:41 pm

not into the library corner.

Come to think of it, option1 is right out. I was thinking it could be kept thin against the wall but then remembering that last time I talked to a fire guy they don't like anything being in that hallway.

option 2 - but i think we have to reply on staff knowing the stock more than stickers.

Sussanna, talk to Cyrielle, she may want to help you with cushions ... but lets wait 2 secs - if we do move the free shop lets plan a whole redesign of the red room in one go, with anyone who wants contributing ...

The shop has looked much better recently but I would still be in favour of a move.

ravanwin · **Posted:** Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:17 pm

two

2

II

r

neil · **Joined:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:50 pm **Posts:** 944

unbelievable. swap system will kill the free shop. even freecycle refuses to embrace a swap system. if this happens i will be mourning the loss of something great.

ravanwin · **Posted:** Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:18 am

2 but no swap but stickers may help that say FREE!

emi · **Posted:** Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:38 pm

agree with ryan

Forest BB

moving the freeshop

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