Can we give the Forest a new push???

Susana · Post by **Susana** » Sat May 23, 2009 6:36 am

We have maybe recovered from the efforts of the fundraising.
So, people of the Forest, perhaps we are in a position to consider new moves...??

Thanks to the money gathered the Forest is not right now bankrupt. We can conclude that we can definitely change things when we put our minds down to it and join energies... ;o) !!! Hurray!

We have an amazing building with tons of spaces and facilities: hall, crafty room, art gallery, cave, dark room, screen printing, etc, etc, etc. ... We should be having a full house all the time but in reality at present they have a... what, 20% usage most of them, maybe?
What is preventing an 80% ?. Well it seems to be the (oh, not again

) 'chronic' toilet problem..

No, I am not talking about BM, i.e., constipation.. although that may also be happening as a by-product (unattractive toilets may be causing a 'psychosomatic' constipation in some more sensitive characters)

I wonder, could we have some sort of GENERAL MEETING TO TACKLE THIS ??

I suppose the solution to this problem would have to happen in 2 ways:

1) get someone to do daily cleaning

PLUS

2) make changes in the design of the toilets, i.e. turn them into something that tends to look clean 'per se':
-tiles on floor and walls
- or, at least, floor and walls painted in colours that scream out: clean! (combination of 2 simple colours: typical turquoise and white ; black and white; red and white..) (as it is, even on a good day, when it has just been cleaned, it looks quite smudgy... )

And how do we achieve it?

1) Pay someone to do it. £5 per day are £5 very well spent... and essential

2) - Maybe we could search for 'grants' towards 'building improvement'?
- or ask around tile makers/sellers for donations?
- run another fundraising event to get that money?

(of course, once we've managed to have a permanent full house we might need to consider expanding the toilet facilities... but that is a bigger bridge to cross in some future... ) By that time we would be mighty and powerful and we could tackle the toilet problems of the whole of Edinburgh....

Anyhow, as that young doctor wrote in a clinical report: "with our vision into the future and pushing forward and moving upwards we might get this patient to take his medicine......"

Ciao bellisim@s

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Sat May 30, 2009 6:24 am

What about we make a statement.

We face ourselves when we toilet. We face humanity's cultural association with our genders and body parts when we must relieve our body of waste.

I feel we should begin with getting some more light in there. Lets also have mirrors on the underside lid of the toilet. - this is ONLY not a standard in the invention due to society's inability to 'face' itself. What about a notice board with sexual support counselling services etc on one wall.

The original cause of disease was poor hygiene/elimination of body waste so a mirror to see that you have cleaned sufficiently IS sensible. What else or other improvements can we think of for the forest?

I had a mirror stuck on the underside of my toilet and most people found it - definitely affronting at first - but then couldn't believe that they'd gone so long without one. I now have one on the wall just to the side but at a height where you can easily examine yourself/see yourself when unzipped.

I favour a more earthy colour than the turquoise, I recall the volunteer's toilet as being a nice colour. A light yellow still appeals - prob as I recall the damp darkness & the garden entrance off from the opposite hallway. IS the volunteer toilet preventing the maintainance of the downstairs one? Maybe a trial closure of it and then a toilet working bee, beginning with the downstairs, have a band playing in the hall outside and refreshments freely flowing. If a light is shone on it and life injected into it with no other alternative IT WILL BE BECOME BEAUTIFUL.

It is a statement of the lack of love of self and for all wanna be forester toilet-goers, that the forest toilets speak of at the mo it sounds. We want to toilet while feeling loved and comfy and safe and respected. There are many people who have enormously diffculty just getting themselves into the position of evacuating bodily waste, with little understanding of their body system and the importance of the digestive system to be functioning with regularity. To maintain our health we really only need to respect our respiratory & digestive systems - if we do this it is amazing how the body can take care of itself.

Lets help everyone by giving them a not unpleasant place in which to do this.

Or why not a special arrangement for a forest toilet brigade? Eg bonus time at the cafe wth a complimentary morning pretoiletting chai or other breakfast arrangement? Or

I know it may seem easy for me to say this from afar but I took my pledge as toilet guru to heart, and in my spirit I never really left the toilet at The Forest, bottom of the stairs and veer right.....

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Sat May 30, 2009 6:34 am

Sign me up on the toilet brigade list for my first day I return there.

It would be very easy to maintain an essence oil burner of some kind in complete fire hazerd safety. I am smelling bergamot and lime in my mind's nose at the moment for the Forest. Think of someone having a lovely massage with Alex then visiting the toilet...THAT is the energy or space or feeling I'd like to maintain while they toilet.

I agree with Susana completely. I don't believe it is possible for us to consider real serious change in ANY other area of the Forest's development until the toilets are entry & exit worthy without any distress/energy loss.

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Sat May 30, 2009 6:44 am

Also, if the general rule with a healthy digestive system is 'in with the new out with the old', food consumed at the cafe is anyone's 'new'. It is then only responsible that we make the 'old' pleasant to be relieved of. Has anyone surveyed what % of cafe goers use the toilet facilities? Can we say we provide toilet facilities with pride? Pride is essential to the human being for health.

The toilet really needs to be as pleasant to be in as the cafe, where the 'new' is consumed...ok I'm signing off on this now

TOILET GURU

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Sun May 31, 2009 10:53 pm

Yeah those tiles could be good...

What if the mural is kept in the main room (toilet speaking), but with the floor tiled going a bit up the wall and then the door to each cubical painted a colour that is a light chosen one coordinating with the mural - praps a yellow/apricot/pinky colour that I remember is part of the 'inners' depicted creatively in the design.
Then the entire cubical could be tiled up to quite high on the walls.

No matter if tiles change even as it gives a mosaicy effect.

Another thing praps to be reminded of, is that while guys can point and shoot urine out with little risk at all to take in unwanted microbes, a woman is quite an open organism, and must lowerer herself nearto potentially threatening microbes to relieve her body of any accumulated wasteproduct. As girls we learn to keep ourselves scrupulously clean to prevent bacterial exchanges from one part of us to another to guard against infection, have a monthly event that requires more care and many of us could have an unwanted thrush or candida bacterial imbalance caused just from the requirement to wear underpants!

I recall there being no tampon/pad container in the loos but a bin in the main room - are these emptied regularly?

maybe a trail period where the guys must lay their penis/rod/lingam/Mr Big/Mr Happy/wee johny onto and in contact with the toilet seat for a while to urinate?

TOILET GURU

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:02 am

Could I be so bold as to suggest that for a guy, urinating is a pleasant thing? At least more pleasant than the act is for most women. I am going on the number of city dwelling guys who express interest in finding a tree to wee under as soon as they get out to my place. No women have asked to wee outside straight away.

Given then that the act itself is not unpleasant - for women it is more dutiful and a compromise with the feeling of more discomfort felt if a bladder held it for longer - could it be that a guy doesn't mind so much where the relief is experienced?

A woman's peripheral vision is also greater/more switched on with a man better at long distance (Meredith 2008), so sight alone gives reason for a woman to be more affected by her surrounds. She is more affected by smell also with greater sense for it.

More than 1 in 5 girls/women at the forest may have undealt with memories and experiences of unwanted sexual incidences and a unisex toilet for this reason also could be all the more affronting. It was for me, but I saw the healing in it, and the positivity and the healing potential for others and I liked how innocently addressing of all this the Forest was.

Lets make it beautiful. Or, lets give up on the unisex idea

ChaoticReality · Post by **ChaoticReality** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:11 am

Unisex FTW. Some of us don't always identify as either gender.

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:30 am

Regardless of how we feel or our behaviour, and that is my interpretion of gender, we are in a form though. I fogot to touch upon the urethral length differences that cause the sisters more concern, or those who inhabit a form that has a yoni or vagina pussy/muff/fanny as the urine's exit. I have never met a woman who has not had a bladder infection. Some unwanted microbes may enter from the outside of the 'woman body' and a urinary tract infection may occur and lead to a bladder then kidney infection.

Whereas for the sisters a bladder infection is only a hop skip and a jump from a urinary tract infection, for the brothers it is more a stones throw, as it must travel along a much longer tract before it reaches the bladder. In many cases the white blood cells can do their bit by such a time. In the sisters antibiotics to reduce burning and stinging felt are a common next step.

I think the toilet or WC water closet is a ridiculous invention personally. All that fuss about an 'S' bend and what a waste of clean drinkable water! It is illegal/unlawful/whichever to not use it however in some city places. Just maintaining one requires all sort of time and effort and products. If one exists, for health reasons it must exist in a clean state. Or, we should be going in the compost, bottom of the stairs and veer left...
TOILET GURU

Gandhi · Post by **Gandhi** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:57 pm

Amelia, do you really have to turn every post into gender comparing monalogues!?

Jane · Post by **Jane** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:37 pm

I have never had a bladder infection
I really love pissing
asking men to put their penis on the seat.... if you've been putting your vagina on the seat, that might explain the bladder infections
I thought you were signing off on this 4 posts ago

dan · Post by **dan** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:49 pm

i always put my penis on the seat, it makes me feel more in touch with my feminine side...xx

ChaoticReality · Post by **ChaoticReality** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:34 pm

amelia wrote: <Yet another long, pointless post a bout differences between women and men, reinforcing as binary gender stereotype>

Ok, amelia, you win. I actually cannot be bothered to read your whole post and I'm sure you're probably just repeating the same monologue but expressed differently, so I don't suppose I'm missing much.

Losing the unisex toilets would be a bad move, in my opinion, and that is all I have to say on the matter.

ChaoticReality · Post by **ChaoticReality** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:35 pm

Jane wrote:I have never had a bladder infection
I really love pissing

Attagirl!

Shannon · Post by **Shannon** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:41 pm

Regardless of how we feel or our behaviour, and that is my interpretion of gender, we are in a form though.

Actually, no. If you want to get all uppity with your biological imperative there are more than just XY and XX variations in the world. It's not all 'feeling' or 'behaviour.' There is more to the world than your black and white dichotomies.

And I especially like pissing with my vagina outside.

Shannon · Post by **Shannon** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:53 pm

Also, what do bladder infections have to do with unsightly toilets? Have I been missing out on something? Do women regularly rub their vulva on the seat? Microbiology isn't my strong point, but as far as I know bladder-infection causing microbes don't jump from the toilet seat, into your vagina. Just take my advice and stop rubbing your vulva against the seat. Penetrative sex with less than clean penises/toys/objects are much more of a concern when it comes to bladder infections.

Sorry for derailing your thread Suzanna...tiles sound like a very good idea.

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:36 pm

Jeez you guys! I'm not uppity in the slightest! I love the toilets and the forest and the tendency for everyone to react so emotively and was interested why there was such non interest in the toilets...shows you're alive now thank you.

nix · Post by **nix** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:04 pm

Ah, the toilets!

I reason that, as we have been thinking about this subject for a while, and had many great ideas, now is the time to do something.

one idea is to convert the 2 cubical & handbasin into a 5 cubical unisex facility.

Mr Ken Smiley, has a plan he has been brewing for a while that I think will work. and I don't' think it will cost too much.
he is sketching it for the architect, who will do a drawing and submit it to The Planning Department who will approve it and then we build it.

-

So, what can we do with the toilets we have?
-

make changes in the design of the toilets, i.e. turn them into something that tends to look clean 'per se':
-tiles on floor and walls
- or, at least, floor and walls painted in colours that scream out: clean! (combination of 2 simple colours: typical turquoise and white ; black and white; red and white..) (as it is, even on a good day, when it has just been cleaned, it looks quite smudgy... )

yes, tiles would be nice. the concrete floor is a problem. it is always wet. Sticking the tiles could be tricky .. and as you can see, the floor paint peels off quickly. but I think trying to dry it out a bit and painting it again might be the best bet. we have floor paint.

in the cubical themselves the walls are uneven and sticking tiles on would mean having to replaster the walls.

Painting the toilets in Clean colours is a great idea. we have been painting the toilets with "Free Paint" (which always comes in funny colours) due to the fact that folk seem to want to vandalize the toilets all the time . (I liked it best when the the toilets where painted black and we gave them free chalk)

we have some white, a lot of 'off white' and a bit of the bright yellow it is at the moment. no blues at the moment.

we should go on a free paint run. http://theforest.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=5578

lets make it nice.

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:13 am

But why is the floor always wet Nix? Drying out the floor may be out of the question, but drying out a tile size area before a tile is adhered is not. Tiles could be adhered this way as there is unbelievable glues invented now such as liquid cement/epoxy resin etc. We would be effectively altering the floor/raising the floor surface. Whatever the being wet reason is, and maybe the tiled floor will be wet in parts, but still, it will be a big improvement til the new bathroom materializes.

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:20 am

Forgot: The chalk board idea is still good, but nice to be rid of the black. In a house I once lived in we had the green version of it on the walls in a couple of rooms, it looks good on it's own - a matt 'heritage' foresty green colour. Maybe people may like to go with the idea again?

Shannon · Post by **Shannon** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:23 am

There is zero ventilation - essential for a public toilet.

thomasharper2000k · Post by **thomasharper2000k** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:28 pm

Completely off the toilet topic. I think you could get more people coming in by better publicizing the forest. I think a lot of people don’t know about the place and what facilities are available. Maybe it’s just me but I couldn’t find the place at first and walked past many times before I realized what was inside. Perhaps a new sign would be good.

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:18 am

[quote="ChaoticReality"][quote="amelia"]
[i]<Yet another long, pointless post a bout differences between women and men, reinforcing as binary gender stereotype>[/i][/quote]

Ok, amelia, you win. I actually cannot be bothered to read your whole post and I'm sure you're probably just repeating the same monologue but expressed differently, so I don't suppose I'm missing much.

Chaotic Reality, it wasn't me who said that.

[quote="Jane"]I have never had a bladder infection

I thought you were signing off on this 4 posts ago[/quote] I don't apologize for giving a shit about your comfort when you need to use a toilet Jane.

[quote="Shannon"][quote]Regardless of how we feel or our behaviour, and that is my interpretion of gender, we are in a form though.[/quote]

Actually, no. If you want to get all uppity with your biological imperative there are more than just XY and XX variations in the world. It's not all 'feeling' or 'behaviour.' There is more to the world than your black and white dichotomies.

And I especially like pissing with my vagina outside.[/quote] For fuck's sake Shannon, the point is making the toilet's nice, I was surprised I was finding the need to give defence for needing to mention our structural differences though the toilet is ALL ABOUT THAT. You are being irrational. The adverb "straight away" was the point to my sentence re[quote="Shannon"]Also, what do bladder infections have to do with unsightly toilets? Have I been missing out on something? Do women regularly rub their vulva on the seat? Microbiology isn't my strong point, but as far as I know bladder-infection causing microbes don't jump from the toilet seat, into your vagina. Just take my advice and stop rubbing your vulva against the seat. Penetrative sex with less than clean penises/toys/objects are much more of a concern when it comes to bladder infections. I was taking the opportunity to advise male users of the toilet that women experience bladder more commonly. I was taking any opportunity to educate about health and the experience of the toilets as they are. I am sorry I bothered. It was the kindness I experienced, that connected & drew me further to the forest. It was out of kindness that I was attempting to make it nicer.
[quote="Gandhi"]Amelia, do you really have to turn every post into gender comparing monalogues!?

[/quote] You have got to be kidding? Where is it MORE APPLICABLE??????I am going to declare you a 'gender phobe' - I think I have your jargon correct Gandhi (though I always read it as The Anti-Gandhi!)

The reactions to my posts to attempt to put energy into making a better toilet space, to make The forest a better space, to 'give the forest a push' as Suzanna's post says are illogical, aside from their personal unpleasantness. I am given strength by Duncans words (to Blue) at this time. I thank Alex and Blue for their kindness when I first met The Forest.

I am an educator about the human being, so it is with familiarity that I mention bits and pieces that I find to be relevant. It is ME writing it afterall, so I choose what I feel to share with those I care about. I am a very sensitive woman and I assure you that the nastiness in your posts, I feel more strongly than you intend them. I would like to not experience such things anymore please. I am sorry if I got the quoting with mistakes, I feltl it was important that I bothered to comment, as I felt this post, under the heading it is under, makes the Forest look like not-so-nice a place.

Gandhi · Post by **Gandhi** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:41 am

Amelia, do you really have to turn every post into gender comparing monalogues!? You have got to be kidding? Where is it MORE APPLICABLE??????I am going to declare you a 'gender phobe' - I think I have your jargon correct Gandhi (though I always read it as The Anti-Gandhi!)

In complete respect:
I'm not a gender phobe...whatever the hell that is??!?haha. I come to this conclusion as I have both male and female friends and I am a male but I am not phobic about myself....that would make my personal life very difficult. If anyone is a genderphobe (?!?!) it is you as you so often dismiss the ill's and differences encountered in the world as problems caused by men or at least casued by the differences between men and women, which as a man I find offensive....simply because its such a blase, lazy, SEXIST comment to make. I PISS INTO THE TOILET NOT AROUND IT!!!! and I do not appreciate being told I am doing otherwise, or at least you are assuming that men as a whole urinate all over the toilet seat. Generalistaions can get you in trouble...I should know as I have been known to cause a heated discussion based on my generalisations on the bb (but i'm learning

)

Ok rant over...

oh and the Anti-Gandhi thing....the fact that my avatar is holding a gun should maybe indicate that I am not pretending to be a reincarnation of a saintly Hindu.

Simple point:
Toilets could be given a lick of paint, cleaned, replace the toilet seats. There will be some people (be them male or female) who urinate on the toilet seat either accidently or weirdly on purpose but you show me a bar/cafe/restaurant/pub/club/music venue where this doesn't happen and I'd be hugely impressed.

Lynne · Post by **Lynne** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:28 am

Wooooh guys!!!

The toilet issue is causing much consternation I feel!

Just to add to what Nix has already said:

QUOTE "yes, tiles would be nice. the concrete floor is a problem. it is always wet. Sticking the tiles could be tricky .. and as you can see, the floor paint peels off quickly. but I think trying to dry it out a bit and painting it again might be the best bet. we have floor paint.

in the cubical themselves the walls are uneven and sticking tiles on would mean having to replaster the walls". QUOTE

I totally agree with him that sticking tiles would be tricky, and in the end they may look shite. Grout gets really dirty really quickly. And, if I'm right in assuming they would be cheapish tiles, then we would break them in a week - just look at the tiles beneath the grill in the kitchen. It took us - ooh - all of a week to break them!

We need extremely durable materials for the toilets - but I am not knowledgeable enough to say what that is....I have seen many toilets covered with that steel 'wallpaper' stuff, but that would not fit the Forest aesthetic I think....

It has to be something that is strong enough to absorb a lot of water - which will always be present in toilets, 'cause folk turn the taps on too fast etc,, etc.,.....

But I don't think tiles are the answer. Any ideas?

Jane · Post by **Jane** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:33 am

what is steel wallpaper? that sounds AWESOME. we could make futurity toilets. with disco lights and lazers.

Gandhi · Post by **Gandhi** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:47 am

steel wallpaper!!!! yes yes yes or mirrored walls with lazers that would be sweeeeeet but it may distract people from peeing into the toilet

Lynne · Post by **Lynne** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:57 am

Really? Do you mean it?

If you's do, then it shouldn't be hard to source.

I always chat to the guy in the Phoneix bar about this kind of shit (no life Lynne!), so he should be able to point me in the right direction...

If you's want me to look into it?

xx

michaelbowdidge · Post by **michaelbowdidge** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:27 pm

Steel wallpaper! Bring it On!!!!! We are the ~~Forest~~ Fascist Cafe! - Achtung baby!

Jane · Post by **Jane** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:29 pm

I mean it.

Gandhi · Post by **Gandhi** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Here are my suggestions:

in all seriousness...steel wallpapers (or metal sheeting!

) are actually a good idea as they are:
a)quite smart looking
b)very easy to clean including wiping off graffiti
c)probably cheaper in the long run than constantly buying paint
d)pretty cool
e)slightly reflective therefore making the room brighter and seemingly bigger

B and Q are also selling toilet seats from £8.99...the wooden ones are sourced from sustainable forests, these start at £8.99 as well.

New bolt locks are cheap....maybe even replace the whole doors as they looked dirty and battered???? but this may be too much of an expense and hassle. but the doors should be painted.

If the floor could be tiled then that would be good as it would look better and is much easier to clean but again this might be difficult to do without raising the height of the floor (due to placing tiles on top) which may cause a smaller (tiny) lip/step up into the toilet area.

paint the ceiling and get a smart lampshade (can't remember whther light is in ceiling or hanging down). Uniformed colours throughout as random colours just adds to dingyness.

Toilet roll holders instead of rolls just placed on shelf above toilet as they get dirty and wet which is gross.

Lynne · Post by **Lynne** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:27 pm

Hey Ghandi

I will look into how much the steel sheeting(!) costs. Ken Smillie said there are other materials such as 'shower wall' that we could also use, but that it would still be possible to vandalise these. So maybe the steel sheeting is the best idea?

Ken Smillie and myself are meeting with our architect next Thursday to discuss the possibility of having a toilet with five cubicles, to comply with the higher capacity that the liquor licence will entail.

I will still look into the steel sheeting in the meantime, but if everyone could keep these plans in mind when they do any work to the toilets - that is, whatever gets done now will be ripprd up/changed in a few months time.

Thank you!

Gandhi · Post by **Gandhi** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:58 pm

liquor licence??? didn't know anything about this, i never thought i'd see the day the forest was fully licensed...whether it's a good thing or not. anyway thats off topic. If they are gonna be ripped up then i sugegst doing nothing until people know what the plans are for the future.

ChaoticReality · Post by **ChaoticReality** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:30 am

amelia wrote:
ChaoticReality wrote:
amelia wrote: <Yet another long, pointless post a bout differences between women and men, reinforcing as binary gender stereotype>
Ok, amelia, you win. I actually cannot be bothered to read your whole post and I'm sure you're probably just repeating the same monologue but expressed differently, so I don't suppose I'm missing much.
Chaotic Reality, it wasn't me who said that.

I know you didn't say that. I paraphrased your post (and every other one), hence the triangle brackets. It was intended to be comic but clearly that was missed.

The hostility you're experiencing is no doubt due to your attitude/replies here and in other threads. The whole man/woman thing seems to be very high on your list of what to post about, to the point where topics get derailed because of it.

You seem to like telling us things and dismissing others who disagree with you, obviously because you're an educator about the human body and the other people are clearly just wrong. (N.B. That was sarcasm. I thought I'd note it, since you missed it before).

Regardless of any of that and on a more serious point:

Steel wallpaper = Cool. It's easy to clean, it's difficult to damage, it lightens up the room/cubicle. It's a good idea.

lucky · Post by **lucky** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:50 pm

Steel wallpaper makes blood flow to me special place.

A*

Gandhi · Post by **Gandhi** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:32 pm

if we get steel wallpaper Alex may have to be banned from using them!

michaelbowdidge · Post by **michaelbowdidge** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:33 pm

I am totally down with the steel wall paper thang... just to clarify...

(*grips right arm firmly with left arm to prevent it from involuntarily shooting into the air to perform an extremely dubious type of salute a la Mel Brooks*

Seriously, I really like the idea - it makes sense.

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:51 am

yeah good one, I get feelings through me from the steel wallpaper idea too. Energising, and I didn't dare read again for fear of feeling hurt. Glad I did. You people teach me and remind me that there are good out there. Thank you.

Gottas say though, you are THE most reactive to any mention of your sexuality. Very very very many problems - most - that we have in this world are from/ have their basis in/of Man and Woman not having a clue what it is they are, their roles and about the way to relate. This is the reason I come back to it, it is not as a separate issue. This, and the personal reason that I want to feel comfortable looking this way, feeling as I do, behaving as I do with the needs and the wants that I have.

Even the Forest can't handle it, a haven for tolerance and creativity, and it is the way my creativity naturally leans,. Reaction to what I say has only been agitated. This is not pleasant to write to. I do not want to agitate. Perhaps you have a need to have your realities remain chaotic, to stay in familiarity, but I'm glad mine isn't. I'm glad most other cultures have more of a comfort with their sexuality than the English. It is nothing to be afraid of. Certainly most English speakers need to learn relating skills including sexual pleasuring as where is it to learn except for the really expensive tantra stuff. Tricky too as the way of man is to need to pretend he already knows the stuff to his mates, but this leaves no opportunity for his personal growth to happen. So, no one is getting the sexual pleasure that they deserve.

I am sorry if my posts get too long but hey, I'm smart, so just tolerate it politely, I can't do anything about it.

I am taking 'Sex Skills' classes here, also called Advanced sexual confidence & pleasuring classes. The names were chosen by guys surveyed specifically for maximum comfort and interest in attending. To maintain everyone in comfort I am able to word stuff "now just for review..." & "assuming we're all great already..." "to bring us all up to date etc "
So, I am sorry if I cause any discomfort to anyone, it is not intended. Pleasure is our birthright and I know people who are extremely comfortable with thier sexuality and I have to learn that there are some things I can't write so freely here. At the sacred sexuality thing 'work clothes' is our skin only, ie naked. My eastern european friends and I commonly speak of man this and woman that...some cultures this is the norm. Give me time. I honestly felt I needed to write on, to motivate concern for the hideous toilet, I am glad that such great ideas are happening.

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:10 pm

If it is necessary for interpretive reasons: Specifically, I am talking of heterosexual (non) relating of man & woman or man & 'female man'. Anyone who knows that they are wanting to be with anyone of the same sexuality, in most cases has done more personal sexuality work than the average M/F. Again I am sorry to those agro about this post, but the forest is about people, and I am one of those people. And, the way I see it, with my woman's perspective, it is completely in context.

Lynne · Post by **Lynne** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:08 pm

I just want to say that I think everyone's ideas and energy for improving the Forest are fab!

I'm sorry if I disrupted that energy with my post about the licence stuff...

Just to let you all know, there is a large possibility that we are going to have to rebuild the toilets in two or three months time - depending on whether or not we get the liquor licence - which we should know by the end of July...

I see a few people are keen on the steel wallpaper idea. Didn't expect that! I will look into how much it costs and get back to you all...

ChaoticReality · Post by **ChaoticReality** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:35 pm

I am perfectly comfortable with my sexuality, Amanda, irregardless of how chaotic my reality is or isn't. I wish you'd stop trying to tell me stuff about myself that is just wrong, it does get irritating after a while (and is possibly why you get such a negative reaction to your posts. Telling people they are wrong no matter what they post is not a good way of making friends.)

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:49 am

Ah good point. Why is it that, or how are you getting that, I am telling people they are wrong? I would have enormous difficulty using these words to say to anyone. Little is ever to do with a right or wrong concept. All I am doing is posting stuff that seems to trigger what is inside others. I do not have control over what is inside others. I genuinely only ever seek to have others have more fun & joy...I know it can be a road though, but it is great to get there.

What about mirror tiles here and there positioned onto the steel wallpaper? In adhoc places on the other side from the main mirror over the sink. Instead of or in addition to the one long main mirror ?

Shannon · Post by **Shannon** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:42 pm

Where is the barfing smiley?

Gandhi · Post by **Gandhi** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:52 pm

the stages of barfing

ChaoticReality · Post by **ChaoticReality** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:50 pm

Shannon wrote:Where is the barfing smiley?

Ahahaha

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:57 am

this is my favourite one.

I think its really fun to even say or link together words like steel and paper.

"Yeah you know, the steel wallpaper they have on the wall in the toilets..."

Juxtapositioning or something I think it's called.

michaelbowdidge · Post by **michaelbowdidge** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:43 am

Really sorry to stir this back up, but this is the kind of thing that annoys me Amelia:

"Tricky too as the way of man is to need to pretend he already knows the stuff to his mates, but this leaves no opportunity for his personal growth to happen."

I have never, ever felt the need to do this in my entire life, and being generalised about in this way really, really depresses me. You really need to disabuse yourself of the notion that that there is a 'way of man' - our paths are manifold and individual.

It may well be that there is some truth in what you say for some people, but your tendency to generalise and create monolithic structures/essences by talking about 'man' and 'woman' rather than men and women does all of us, and our diversity a huge disservice.

That's not to say we can't talk about these things, but just to point out what it is in the way that you say things that winds people up. It often sounds like you are claiming ownership of 'the truth', rather than presenting your truth.

Please don't be offended by this, I just thought it needed saying...

milk · Post by **milk** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:52 pm

"Tricky too as the way of man is to need to pretend he already knows the stuff to his mates, but this leaves no opportunity for his personal growth to happen."

I used to be like this, but then again I know females who have or still do display the same trait.

Heck, we are all like this all the time to an extent anyway. We all have our individual domains of knowledge.

The key is to learn that stepping back and being objective about a situation is the best way to get the full picture of things, to understand how our psychologies have been built up, how our cognition works, why we and others (both close to us and those now in history) do and believe what we do, how to overcome bias of our own and realise it in others, figure out what's the best way of doing this collaboratively and what modes of communication (and living) can be good in general.

On your quote that Michael noted, I don't see how you can't realise that it is sexist in nature. Imagine someone saying the same thing about females, that they struggle with personal growth. Would you not be kinda angry?

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:31 pm

Everyone is an individual of course, but some more than others. This does not mean that there should be fear that prevents anyone from ever relating about topics that are seldom broached that are the cause of much. Topics that are difficult and challenging to raise and discuss are not impossible to raise and discuss once people come into an understanding.
Triggers are presses as it touched on personal experiences. Words are used that have associations that come to the surface.

Personal growth is for all of us of course. 'Men' is a word I use to generally describe the sex of species I deal with as my interest for sexual and intimate company. I relate to many each day in my form as a woman. I only relate to them in my form which is a curvy blonde woman.

When I speak of generalisations I use this technique because it is an accceptable way to speak of the human on mass. Always there are ratios used. The term 'average' describes an individual that doesn't exist anyway and I don't personally like it for this reason. Some topics are greatly helped by understood form of 'generalising'. I think we all know there are exceptions and individualities and special abilities and skills that are not recognised and appreciated...this is the forest afterall.

It takes courage to raise old stagnant misunderstood and unnecessarily misunderstood ways of relating that are behind huge problems. New words cannot be used first up or straight away as no one would have a clue. Best to talk to those brave enough and articulte and smart enough first, then come into an understanding.

To milk, I say that you are a sexy man to me going on your focussed attention of mind strength and your confidence. Like WOW. Homosexual men, whatever gender men, heterosexual men...are all MEN to me if they have a man's mind abilities, man's chakra abilities. As a woman I get turned on by things I can't do so easily or at all. This is why I love the differences of us. repeat I LOVE the differences of us. Someone used the word 'compare' asking why I compare but I don't feel I do, I have no desire to. I notice them. I want them.

Thank you both for you interest. Have a lovely day

amelia · Post by **amelia** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:06 pm

Just further to Michael's point:

The boyfriends I have had have only ever the loveliest exceptions I have come across. Also, as a woman I only relate to a man, as he is in his ability to relate to a woman. I think you would be surprised by the difficulty this presents in some.

I agree with Shantam Nityama in his statement that "the way to tell if a man is being real is to stand him in front of a woman as she will know straightaway".

Yes there are exceptions, thank the universe, but I relate to many cultures and I so wish there were more of you.

I also know that there is much much healing needed among woman, in relating to each other as well as to Man. This time I use Man as the one of our species that we must connect with to continue our species in good emotional health. Over & out!

Jane · Post by **Jane** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:35 pm

amelia wrote:Everyone is an individual of course, but some more than others

Mmmnnn Orwellian.