our website, so big and scrolly

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby ChaoticReality » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:07 am

This incarnation of the website has not been around for that long.

We had the old Joomla site before that, remember?

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Shannon » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:56 am


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby joachim » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:57 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby neil » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:46 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby ChaoticReality » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:54 am

Good post Neil.

Milk has already started making the site simpler. Have a look at the front page now.

Designers! Start thinking about a design for the front page. As soon as we can, we'll tell you what menu items you need to incorporate and then we can get a selection of front pages to display!

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby dan » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:37 am

can we get the skeletons up now though for the time being?
D x

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Jane » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:20 am

I don't want to cause bad feeling, I just want it to look good and be navigatable for our legions of fans worldwide. This is our shiny face for the far-away world, after all.

In the meantime to cheer everyone up, here is a fancy accessory for your ignition:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Jane » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:49 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby joachim » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:06 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Shannon » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:09 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby ChaoticReality » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:10 pm

Well if we are then the tumblr site needs to be fixed up.

Firstly, it's long a scrolly on the main page, which funnily, although correct me if I'm wrong, was a complaint about the current site.

Secondly, huge swathes of text have been copypasted from the current site, meaning that none of the links work. They look like links, but they do nothing when you click on them, rendering half the site non-functional.

You've convinced me, it's a great idea! Lets change over to a site that, while it looks pretty, is impossible to navigate around or find the info you need. That will help potential customers, right?

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby joachim » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:39 pm

There's nothing Tumblr does that that the current site can't be made to do over another afternoon of me & Milk slogging at it (especially if supplied with regular top-ups of coffee and cake).

And yup, the scrolliness is a feature of Tumblr too. It's generally a feature of the fact that it is currently set up to be a long list of recently posted stuff in reverse chronological order. Now this is the only thing Tumblr can do. It's far from the only thing Drupal can do.

If we want to move away from a scrolly-type front page, then what do we want instead?

A flat HTML splash page at the front is a turn-off for a site. People don't visit a site, they return to a site, and they want new stuff when they come back.

What we could do with Drupal is a combination of splash page and dynamic content: stick recent news headlines & upcoming events down the side of something big and splashy (such as whatever these skeletons are...)

Before people really get stuck into designs, we need to think about what the page elements are going to be and where, and start drawing up wireframes. So by all means start pondering colour schemes and graphics, but don't get too rigid just yet. Once we have the essential tidy-ups done on the site, I'm going to look at getting a new theme set up that those of you with enough CSS know-how to be dangerous can start playing about with.

(Who was it I spoke to yesterday who knew about setting up a git repository?)

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Jane » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:14 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Jane » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:17 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby joachim » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:45 pm

You're now hitting a deeper question of 'What is the website for?'

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Martin » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:03 pm

I don't like the skeletons page at all as it stands, for two reasons:

1. There is nothing on it that says what forest is and where it is. These are the very first things someone should find out by following a link to our site.

2. You can't see what the options are. You have to wave your mouse around over the skeletons to see them. This is a silly game that slows people down deliberately, i.e. makes the page hard to use. Having the colours appear as the mouse goes over is fine, but the text should always be visible.


Martin

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby joachim » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:23 pm

/me looks on the first page of the thread...

Oh right, those skeletons.

Nice artwork :)

First, a technical point: that HTML is table-based and non-semantic, so it would need its code completely rejigging.

And I agree with the previous post that it's kinda faffy to navigate. Something like this is fun and amusing the first couple of times you see it. After a few visits, and when all you want to do is get to the website to check the start time of the thing you're going to, it's a pain.

On a more aesthetic point, I'm not sure how skeletons say The Forest. It's also going to get a bit tired after a few months, so we would need a new one of these on a fairly regular basis.

If there is a real interest in producing artwork like this -- and the technical skills to turn it into the required graphics -- then there is no reason why we can't make a system in Drupal for outputting this and uploading a new one each couple of months. But I think something like this really needs to incorporate a regular text menu and some dynamic content. We'd need to design a front page wireframe with those elements in it for the graphic artists to work with.

> I especially think this is true for a sprawling organisation such as the forest where we have so much going on an no hierarchy of content control to decide what should be going up first as news on the website.

The news should perhaps be actual news? The weekly programme should really be posted as individual events in the calendar, and perhaps only the events coming up in the next 7 days should get headlines on the front page (or thumbnails of the posters, if they have them). Though this sort of thing really needs to be thrashed out in a wireframing meeting.

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby ChaoticReality » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:30 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chris » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:01 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chris » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:18 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chombee » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:33 pm

Ha ha ha! Naah, only joking :)

(Rushed home to get to that joke before Swithun.)
I've had it with you. If I had an image of a laser gun I would absolutely position it right here in my hand...
Ha! I have a real laser absolutely positioned in my hand!

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chombee » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:49 pm

Seriously, I'm glad we're going to have a meeting about this. We clearly do need one, because a number of different solutions have been suggested and different people have expressed preference for different solutions, so it won't do for drupal to just steamroller the tumblr camp because 'we don't need to be this serious about it', and also because this thread is starting to get divisive so it's a good idea for us all to meet in person at this point.

This developing on the live drupal site is bad form, please don't do that.

I'm not convinced that staying with drupal (even with further development) is necessarily the best way. I think that by copying the tumblr layout, colours etc to drupal you're going to end up with a bad imitation of tumblr in drupal (see what I said earlier about the results of compromising between two different visions) which continues to beg the question of why we don't just use tumblr.

But I (and I'm sure the rest of us) am willing to be proven wrong on this point. Like others I'm still in favour of moving to tumblr with a static front page now and moving back to drupal if and when it's better than tumblr.

Anyway, lets get together soon and hammer out a course of action.

Side not: Joachim, no, the table-based non-semantic HTML would not need completely rejigging. That would be missing point. It works as it is, and it looks good! :)
I've had it with you. If I had an image of a laser gun I would absolutely position it right here in my hand...
Ha! I have a real laser absolutely positioned in my hand!

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby joachim » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:10 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chris » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:16 am

hey Joachim and Milk!

I don't quite get it! By your own admission neither of you are designers, but both like the awesome power of drupal. So why are you changing the style of the current site, when you are not working to any design? it seems i agree with chombee again, and either you have to go the whole way and copy the tumblr site exactly (seems totally pointless), or you should be working to a different pre-determined template, designed by someone who does have aesthetic judgment. Doing anything else would seem to be a waste of your time.

Form, colour, and content must be balanced, to create a harmonious and attractive design. Just copying the colour scheme from the other site is kinda not enough....

additionally you are still developing the live site, i just looked at it there are a load of errors:

* There is no new syndicated content from Forest Publications.
* There is new syndicated content from Minutes.
* There are no new items.
* There are no new items.
* There are no new items.
* Expired 0 records from feeds_data_feed_fast.

.....why not develop a backup version of the site????????????????????????????

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Jane » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:51 am


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chris » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:58 am

It is important that the forest site is great looking and fast!

One reason for this is that I am currently approaching a number of external organisations who know nothing about forest, all they have to go by is our website. Currently I find this rather embarrassing, and I feel it gives us a bad impression. This makes it much harder for me to encourage them to be involved and get excited about things I want to organise for us.... :(


incidentally i agree with most of janes points.

i would add these to the list:

Photos on the website should be curated. Only good pictures, most of the photos on the current site aren't very attractive, and belong in a regular flickker/facebook gallery, not on our website. - great photos illustrate what we do way better than text can, and they give a feeling and flavour of us and forest.

I do not like this description of forest, and i do not think a statement of what forest is needs to be totally in your face and take up so much space.:
"The Forest is a volunteer run, not-for-profit arts, social and events space masquerading as a groovy veggie café in the heart of Edinburgh. All events are free. All are welcome to help, admire or perform. Forest is people. People is Forest. You is people. You is Forest."

I think the massage corner and sip and snip are awesome, but I do not think they are forest projects. I am keen to support them, but I don't think they should have large top of screen front page links.

why is there a link to google? everyone already has google, why on earth would anyone at our site want to click that?

that whole bit with the search, google, rss, donate, looks ugly.

has anybody ever donated to us using that donate button? i would not place it top of screen.

I dont think a login section is needed at the bottom of every page.


there are loads more things i could add to this list, but this gives a flavour of my criticism..

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby neil » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:48 am

While I'm reluctant to join the pro-Tumblr movement, I have to say that I think pretty much all Jane's & Chris's points about the look & feel of the site are valid.

I also have to agree with Chris's views about the urgency of the situation, taking into account what he's trying to do and how the site is not effectively representing us to those who have their first contact with us by looking at it. I've been in a similar situation myself when we had the Joomla site and it was very frustrating.

I thought previously that Drupal would remove the issues caused by Joomla, in that we had a CMS that was only understood by 1 or 2 people, and they were so busy with the nuts and bolts of it that the aesthetics and content never got the attention they needed (although Gareth did a sterling job of patching things up when it became absolutely necessary). However, we are once again in a similar situation as we were with Joomla.

Joachim and Milk are clearly working hard on this. If you guys really want to save Drupal, I think you'll have to get it even further streamlined and the content improved pretty quick.

Chris, maybe you should get your Tumblr site ready go go live? Milk and Joachim, maybe you guys should have one last blast at making Drupal beautiful. And then maybe the FWG should decide at its next meeting which one to go with?

I don't see this being resolved any other way at the moment.... and there's nothing like a bit of competition to drive up standards!

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby joachim » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:10 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Jane » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:21 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chris » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:27 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby ChaoticReality » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:34 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chris » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:55 pm

I am not into compromising over the aesthetic design of the website.

There should be a design and it should be accepted by the web team, and implemented as such. The current site design is a bastardised version of a design i suggested last year (i was not happy about that then, and i am not happy about it now). The "new" colour scheme is taken from the tumblr site, again you are taking part of a design not the whole thing. Form and colour go together. Taking a small part of someones design, is an insult to the designer, especially when the people involved do not claim to know anything about design.

I am happy to involved in a new design, but as regards aesthetics there are only certain people I am prepared to work with.

I think a deadline needs to be set for the current site, and if it isnt good by then, it needs to be switched.

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby ChaoticReality » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:57 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby joachim » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:01 pm

The visual look of the site and what it runs on are two completely separate things. (I feel I am repeating myself here.)

We can make Drupal look like anything.

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby ChaoticReality » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:05 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby joachim » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:07 pm

And also repeating: there is little point in producing a design until you know what you're designing.

We start by deciding what the purpose of the site is: what does a visitor to the site want to do?

Here are my suggestions; please refine and ponder your own for Saturday:

- want to know what the Forest is
- want to know what's on
- want to get involved as a volunteer

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chris » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:08 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chris » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:18 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby joachim » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:20 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Jane » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:23 pm

Before this gets any more snarky, can we agree that we need to sit down and have a meeting? Instead of deciding this is saturday which some people may not be able to make, can we all fill in the doodle and we'll designate a time this week?

We need to actually agree on what we want the website to look like before we just show up while people are programming and start demanding various changes. As we have seen here already, there is not consensus on that. Making the design decisions while programming is like trying to overhaul the menu while serving customers simultaneously or like trying to copy-edit a book before you've decided what stories are going in it.

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Jane » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:30 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chris » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:33 pm

i agree with jane.

additionally i had intended to post this thread, within which i discuss some web considerations, that were unable to be implemented at the time due to a lack of technical knowledge.

http://www.theforest.org.uk/bb/viewtopi ... it=website

this is an old design, and i mention it only to illustrate that the current design, is in someway a descendant of a design i created.

again apologies if i have come across as snarky, i do not mean to be. but it does appear that we (non-drupal devotees) are being somewhat stonewalled.

I am serious when i say the website is very important for funding opportunities for forest and contacting external organisations. having a great looking website can help us enormously with these things.

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby ChaoticReality » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:38 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Jane » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:52 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chris » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:03 pm

hey mike,

it seems you keep missing the point of what i write, perhaps i am not explaining myself very clearly?

The point is to avoid compromise in design, not to exclude people.

if i want to do a design, i can chose to work with anyone i like who also wants to work with me. So can you, and so can anybody. there can be multiple designs, and hopefully the best one will be selected, either collectively, or through a vote (which i think is acceptable in such a case).

I do not think it is on to chop peoples designs up and implement them ad-hoc, and i personally would not chose to paint a mural with someone whose aesthetic sense i do not like. That is my personal decision. and it goes for a website as well.

so yeah, we collectively asked magda to paint a mural. We did not tell her what to paint or tell her to change it, or ask another artist to change it after she'd done it, or tell her she has to work with so and so. that would all be wrong.

of course i can chose who i work with, and obviously i cannot dictate what will happen to the website, i just want it to be good, if you guys can do that in an acceptable time scale then thats fine. as i've said repeatedly i am happy to be involved in this process, but there are somethings i will not do. i will not learn to code drupal. and i am not interested in a aesthetically compromised website.

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby ChaoticReality » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:04 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby chris » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:06 pm

read my post.

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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby joachim » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:10 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby ChaoticReality » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:16 pm


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Re: our website, so big and scrolly

Postby Shannon » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:17 pm

Can I suggest that this thread is closed, and anymore website chat waits for the meeting?

I don't think people's differences are going to be worked out on this thread and new misunderstandings seem to emerging.

Pretty please?


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